Showing posts with label God. Show all posts
Showing posts with label God. Show all posts

Tuesday, January 29, 2013

Who Created Everything???

As I think about the creation of the world, I think about all the things that God has done.  From the snow that lay on the ground now to the birds that sing and the air which we breath, God created it all. 

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.  Gen 1:1 (ESV)

Like The Bible say; “God Created”.  But I look to the LDS religion to see what they believe in this area.  I remember that the LDS do clam to have the bible in there canon and even in the Articles of Faith is says; 

“We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly…” (Article Eight, Articles of Faith).

So then I look at creation and I think to myself, “Is there some we can agree on?”  Well again there is no because we do not agree on creation because of all the LDS reading I have done, the LDS do not believe in creation as told in the Bible. 

I know, I know… the LDS clam to believe the Bible and where is say, “God Created” but that is not what is taught by LDS in there own works.  Let us look at what the teachers of LDS theology says;

“God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law by which the worlds were, are, or will exist. There is an eternity before us, and it is full of matter; and if we but understand enough of the Lord and his ways, we would say that he took of this matter and organized the earth from it. How long has been organized it is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it” (Brigham Young, May 14, 1871, Journal of Discourses 14:116).

God never made?  But Genesis says He created. 

When Christians talk about God creating the Heavens and Earth, we believe He created all things.  And I mean ALL THINGS. 

“AND then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (Abraham 4:1).

Again, Christians believe that God Created not organized and formed the world. 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.  John 1:1-3 (HCSB)

The Gospel of John makes it clear that ALL THINGS were created through Jesus Christ.  Not formed and organized.

So was the earth created or just organized?  Do we believe the Bible (which the LDS clam they do) or believe man? 

Tuesday, November 6, 2012

What Happens When A Mormon is Shown the Truth?

 

When the truth is shown to you, one should believe and not turn away because that’s how they were raised.  To many times I talk with people in the LDS faith and this is the type of things I hear.  Even when I show them facts for their own books, they are still clouded by the lies that they have been told all their lives.

I pray that the people in this video and other Mormons look more into the history of the LDS church and the writings of the early church leaders because as soon as you do, you will see that the begging LDS was total different then what it is today.   

END OF LINE…

Monday, July 23, 2012

Our Relationship with the Lord by Bruce R. McConkie

Today I took the time to read a copy of Bruce McConkie’s 1982 BYU Devotional entitled “Our Relationship with the Lord.”  AS I read this 22 page paper I was blown away by what was written by the Apostle.  Every time I talk to a Mormon about them believing or worshipping Christ, one of the biggest answers I get is, “Yes… I mean the name of our church has Jesus in it.” 

But what did Bruce McConkie say about Jesus Christ? 

“We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost.”

This Statement surprised me because I believed that the Mormon Church did worship Jesus.  I mean they did name the Church after Him.  We clearly have here that Bruce McConkie telling the people of the LDS faith that, “We worship the Father and him only and no one else.”   

But is that all… NOOOOOOOO!!!! What else did I find in this Devotional, well that Bruce McConkie taught that Jesus work off His salvation.  Point 5 in this devotional it states, “Christ worked out his own salvation by worshipping the Father.” 

WOW JESUS WORK OFF HIS SALVATION!!!

In another part he writes, “After all of this he was called upon to work out his own salvation”. 

But this make since seeing as most Mormons are trying to work their way to Heaven.  So even at the beginning there is not a since of grace of God to save when the Son has to be saved and work to be saved himself. 

The devotional comes to the conclusion with Bruce McConkie telling the people of the LDS faith that they don’t need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. 

“To single out one member of the Godhead for a Special relationship, the Father, not the Son, would be the one to choose.”  and “Our relationship with the Son is one of brother or sister in the pre-mortal…”

Mormons, this is why we see and call you non-Christians.  When you take Jesus and make Him a man who has to work for His own salvation, its wrong.  Jesus is God, not a God but God. 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created. 4 Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men. 5 That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome  it. John 1:1-5 (HCSB)

We Bible Believing Christians understand that Jesus is God and we need to have that relationship with Him.  Jesus saves us from our Sin by the blood be shed on the cross for us.  This is a gift that was given to us.  We can not work our way to Heaven because we can never pay for the sins we commit.  I proudly Worship Jesus because He is my God and my LORD (John 20:28). 

Look to the teachings of you teachers my Mormon friends and then look to the Bible for the truth.  It will set you free.

END OF LINE… 

Thursday, January 12, 2012

Can a Christian believe that the Father is a great pumpkin in the sky?

Posted on January 12, 2012 by Aaron Shafovaloff on http://blog.mrm.org

Is a Christian someone who believes in a person named “Christ”, no matter what attributes they think of this person or his Father having? This will sound like a silly and irreverent thought-experiment, but hear me out, as this is intended to draw out a principle:

If someone said they believed in the historical life, death, and resurrection of the person of Jesus Christ, but said that this person’s Father was a great pumpkin in the sky, would that person still legitimately be considered a Christian?

I asked that very question to a panel of Mormon scholars once, and one answered yes (preferring such a person to be called a “heretical Christian”), and another answered no (referring to Jesus’ statement in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one”). Of course, no Mormon believes that the Father is “a great pumpkin in the sky”, but it does seem Mormons tend to believe that the title of “Christian” should be granted to anyone who claims the person of “Christ”, no matter what attributes they think this person (or his Father) have. The conditions are understandably minimal: this person believes in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, and this person believes in Christ’s “divinity” (however a person chooses to define that).

Traditional Christianity seems to have an unspoken, hidden qualification: such a person lacks what we might call “defeater-beliefs”. Believing that God is a unicorn or is the Xenu of Scientology would be safe examples. Does Mormonism simply deny the idea of “defeater-beliefs” altogether, beliefs which would disqualify someone’s status as “Christian”? Have Mormons primarily done this to make it easier to justify their own status as “Christian”, or are there any compelling reasons they have from scripture and reason? Even those rare Mormons who believe that Jesus was a sinner seem to be embraced as fellow Mormons. Is there simply no limit to what a “Christian” can believe beyond what is considered the minimum requirement?

The heart of my question for Mormons is whether the attributes and identity of Jesus and the Father matter with respect to the theological and spiritual definition of “Christian”. This of course is relevant to evangelical Christians, who don’t recognize as “Christian” those who believe the Father was once perhaps a mere mortal sinful man, or that he is potentially one among many in a larger genealogy of Gods. In fact, we happen to believe that these “defeater-beliefs” compromise the very nature and content of basic Christian beliefs, in an inevitably integrated and interconnected way. Call us bigoted, call us hateful, call us arbitrarily exclusive, but if someone believes that the Father is a great pumpkin in the sky, we don’t recognize them as Christian.

Wednesday, December 14, 2011

The Fall was Good?

Last night as I was looking through my 1979 copy of Gospel Principles, I find myself reading about Adam and Eve and the fall.  Now I have looked into this before and have heard of that the LDS church teaches that the fall was a good thing but I had never actually took the time to study it. The main reason is that I never could believe that a group that claims they worship God could say that sin was a good thing.  But The teachings of the Mormon church does say that the fall of Adam and Eve, sin, was a good thing. 

This is what it says in Gospel Principles;

“Some people believe that Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all mankind” (Gospel Principles, 1979, p. 31). 

Now this one quote was not has hard to read then some of the quotes from Mormons teaching that parse sin. 

  “ADAM AND EVE REJOICED IN THE FALL. Before partaking of the fruit Adam could have lived forever; therefore, his status was one of immortality. When he ate, he became subject to death, and therefore he became mortal. This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do! I am sure that neither Adam nor Eve looked upon it as a sin, when they learned the consequences, and this is discovered in their words after they learned the consequences” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:115. See also The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327, p. 13).

“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise” (Russell M. Nelson, “Constancy amid Change,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, p. 34).

“Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we should have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve, why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to His government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and He had designed that they should.” (Brigham Young, June 10-13, 1864, Journal of Discourses 10:312).

Brigham Young stated that God designed that they would sin.  This me wonder why God would ever tell not to eat of the tree in the first place. 

Christian understand that sin is wrong and has always been wrong.  even the Mormons teach that  Satan and his followers sinned in Heaven and turned on God and was punished but they look at Adams sin and say it was a good thing?  this does not make any since at all? 

The Bible makes it clear that sin is wrong.  Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of there sins and people have died because they have sin ageist God.  If sin was apart of God’s plan then why would we need to be forgiven of sin. 

Even the book of Mormon makes it clear that sin is wrong;

  “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37).

Sin can’t save or be part of God’s plan.  The whole idea of God is that he is perfect and that sin is us going ageist God.  He would not set us for us to sin to move is plans along. 

If we believe that Adam’s sin was good and needed to be done, that would  take away for the great and powerful will of God. We have to understand that God does not need us to move His plan and He does not need us to sin to let His plan happen.  God is God and we are just man.  He is our creator and we can not change His plan.

God, Your Will Be Done!!!  Not mine.

Sin is not good any time or any reason. Jesus went to the cross because of sin and died because of the sin that we commit. 

8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.       1 John 3:8-10 (HCSB)

END OF LINE…

Thursday, October 27, 2011

Time for a Change

So this past weekend, I was blessed to take part in the Utah-Idaho Southern Baptist Convention 47th Annual Convention.   This meeting was a huge blessing. I was able to hear a lot of good preaching and was able to think about a lot of things. 

Graphic%20annual%20conv

Over the time I was there to hear what we need to do, God smacked me around a little and gave me a path, goal, and information that I needed to grow His kingdom in the Duchesne area and the areas around.  Now this will move people, move them to get off their butts and work or will get them to move their butts to want me out.  but no matter what happens, I will do all things through the power and truth of Jesus Christ.

This is just the start, stay with me, follow me and see how God changes this very lost state.

PS. thank you to Bruce T. for going with me and seeing the vision too.

END OF LINE

Saturday, October 22, 2011

Are we Different?

So over the weeks I have seen a lot of LDS bloggers and others complain about how Christians say that Mormons “have a different Jesus” or “Don’t have the Jesus of the Bible”. Well as most Christians and pastors and people who look into the difference in the two beliefs, they understand this to be truth. This is one of the reasons Christians are called anti-Mormon, but it’s not anti-Mormon it’s fact. We believe in two different God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Also we believe in two different origins of man. In a attempt to make it clear, here is a chart that I have used from the book “Mormonism Unmasked”.

One God of the Bible

Plural Gods of Mormonism

God The Father

Infinite

Finite

Always God

Became God

Absolutely Holy

Achieved Holiness

All Knowing

Achieved Knowledge

Eternal Perfect

Achieved Perfection

All Powerful

Attained Power

Only Creator

One of Many Designers

The Son (Jesus)

Eternal

Procreated by God and Wife

Creator

Our Brother

The Holy Spirit

Eternal

Procreated By God and Wife

Creator

A Spirit Brother

Human

Created on Earth

Same Species as God

Spiritually Adopted Children

Born to God and Wife

When you look at this you can see that there are two different things. That’s why we say the LDS has two different God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit.

END OF LINE…

Friday, October 21, 2011

Teachings of Thomas S. Monson (Part 3)

It has been a week and a half since my last post on the teachings of Thomas S. Monson, but I am back. I did not want anyone to think I have given up. By the way, how has your reading been? You know, I asked you to read a Christian book as I read this one. Is anyone doing it? Let me know.

So today I want to talk about the section on Eternal Life that starts on page 101 but the quote I want to look at is on page 102 paragraph 2.

“Eternal Life in the kingdom of our Father is your goal. Such a goal is not achieved in one glorious attempt, but rather is the result of a lifetime of righteousness, an accumulation of wise choices, even a constancy of purpose. Like the coveted “A” grade on a report card of a difficult a required college course, the reward of eternal life requires effort.” (“Decisions Determine Destiny,” LDS Student Association Young Women’s Meetings, Logan, Utah, May 16, 1968)

Now is this what the bible says? NO NO NO

39 Then one of the criminals hanging there began to yell insults at Him: “Aren’t You the Messiah? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, rebuking him: “Don’t you even fear God, since you are undergoing the same punishment? 41 We are punished justly, because we’re getting back what we deserve for the things we did, but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.” Luke 23:39-43 (HCSB)

Here we have the showing that Jesus gave salvation, in one glorious action to a criminal. No life time of righteousness, no good works, not sealed in a temple, no nothing. The Criminal just asked and he received eternal life.

16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 (HCSB)

In John 3:16 the key word is believe. If we believe in Jesus have faith in Him, put our faith in Him, repent of our sins, we have eternal life. This takes place in one glorious moment not a life time. If we were to look at our life we would see that we have sinned more then we have done good. That’s way Romans 3:10-12 is so important;

10 as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one. 11 There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away; all alike have become useless. There is no one who does what is good, not even one. Romans 3:10-12 (HCSB)

There is no one that is righteous because one sin gives us eternal death but Romans 6:23 calls eternal life a gift.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 (HCSB)

You cannot work for a gift; a gift is given to you. I love the way Romans 11:6 tells it.

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Romans 11:6 (NKJV)

So what does the bible say? It’s a gift that happens when you ask for forgiveness.

What does Thomas S. Monson and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints says? It a lifetime of righteousness and good works.

Sorry Thomas but you got it wrong. That’s not what the Bible says.

END OF LINE…

Thursday, October 20, 2011

Love One Another (I Love Mormons 2)

One of the terms I hate the most in my ministry is the term, “Anti-Mormon”. Truly I hate this term because this is who I am not. Over the past few weeks I have been called this behind my back, on blogs, and other ways. Now this does hurt because I have said it before and will say it again, I LOVE MORMONS!!!

Now are my blogs talking about how I believe the LDS church is wrong, YES but that is only because I love. Just as the LDS send out Mormon missionaries door to door telling people that they will not be with God if they don’t do certain things, accordion to the LDS faith, I to preach what I know is true.

But as of late it seems that Mormons are trying to claim that the Biblical Christians are beating up on them. And I understand that with the GOP race and the Pastor in Texas, the Biblical Christians have been speaking out about the LDS faith, but we are not bashing you but we are trying to show that the Mormon faith is false. But in no way is the LDS innocent of not bashing of the Biblical Christians. In fact the LDS came out swinging. A lot of past Mormon teachers and prophets have been bashing the Christian Churches for years now. So please don’t think you are getting beat down because you all have a ton a beating in your past.

For example;

2nd President Brigham Young

“The people called Christians are shrouded in ignorance, and read the Scriptures with darkened understandings” (Brigham Young, October 8, 1859, Journal of Discourses 7:333).

“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Tes­tament defines Christianity” (Brigham Young, July 8, 1863, Journal of Discourses, 10:230).

6th President Joseph F. Smith

“…for I contend that the Latter-day Saints are the only good and true Christians, that I know anything about in the world. There are a good many people who profess to be Christians, but they are not founded on the foundation that Jesus Christ himself has laid” (Joseph F. Smith, November 2, 1891, [Stake conference message], Collected Discourses, 2:305. Ellipses mine).

And how about the pastor of these Churches that I am a member of? I am a pastor and I get paid, so what does the LDS think about me and others.

Wherever creeds are found one can also expect to find a paid clergy, the simple truths of the gospel cloaked in the dark robes of mystery, religious intolerance, and a history of bloodshed” (Jo­seph Fielding McConkie and Craig Ostler, Revelations of the Restora­tion, p. 964).

Hard words on the part of the LDS to the churches and paid pastors. Oh and by the way, what church is the only true church?

Just because the Biblical Christian view is not the same as the LDS, that does not mean that we are Anti-Mormon, we just want to show you the truth found in the Bible and we want to make sure you have eternal life.

As a Pastor, Christian, friend, I love you and care for your soul.

END OF LINE…

Wednesday, October 12, 2011

How was Jesus Conceived?

Over the past week and a half, there has been a lot of talk between Mormons and Christians about how Jesus was conceive. This talk has been highlighted on the bible answer man and has been talked about here in Utah because of those shows.

On the bible answer man, Hank Hanegraaff used a quote from Bruce R. McConkie (Shown Below) to show that Mormon belief say that God came down to earth in a body of flesh and blood and was with Mary to Conceive.

“Christ was Begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547).

Now a lot of Mormons called in and wrote Email stating that we Christians are wrong and don’t know what we are talking about, Which I hear a lot from Mormons, but it is hard to say that when people like Hank Hanegraaff, Bill McKeever, Sandra Tanner, Shawn McCraney, and Myself use the words of Mormon Leaders to understand what the LDS teaches. 

On the issue at hand, How was Jesus conceive?  I give you Luke 1:26-35

26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And ⌊the angel⌋ came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was deeply troubled by this statement, wondering what kind of greeting this could be. 30 Then the angel told her:

Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Now listen: You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.

34 Mary asked the angel, “How can this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?” 35 The angel replied to her:

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy One to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:26-35 (HCSB)

Now as I have talked to members of the LDS, they clam that this is what they believe but this is not what was said by Mormon leaders. let us look at the teachings of Mormon leaders and if a Mormon is reading this then remember that this is what you most believe to be a good Mormon and if that words come from the president then it is scripture, Believed to be the word of God to the LDS.

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers” (Brigham Young, July 8, 1860, Journal of Discourses 8:115). 

“CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF HOLY GHOST… Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:18. Italics in original.

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost” (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7. See also the Church News, December 18, 2004, p. 16).Ellipses mine).

“We are all spirit sons and daughters of God; but Jesus Christ was and is The Son of God in a superlative and distinctive sense, God the Eternal Father being His Father both in spirit and in flesh” (James E. Talmage, Conference Reports, April 1915, p. 123).

“Begotten means begotten; it means Christ’s mortal body was procreated by an Eternal Sire; it means God is the Father of Christ, ‘after the manner of the flesh.’ (1 Ne. 11:18.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:141).

“The official doctrine of the Church is that Jesus is the literal offspring of God. He’s got 46 chromosomes; 23 came from Mary, 23 came from God the eternal Father” (BYU Professor Stephen E. Robinson, The Mormon Puzzle, produced by the Southern Baptist Convention, 1997).

“The Father had a Son, a natural Son, his own literal Seed, the Offspring of his body” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, pg.355).

So for what the words that the LDS clam, God literally came and was with Mary and had a son, that was the LDS Jesus. 

This is not what the Bible teaches and is not what Christians believe.  This is one reason that Christians say that Mormons have a “Different Jesus”.  Again like I have said, and others have said, We do not believe in the same Jesus or the same God.  But my Heart goes out to people of the Mormon faith. I pray that they see the light and the truth and come to know the real Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible. 

END OF LINE…

Monday, October 10, 2011

Teachings of Thomas S. Monson: Part 2 (His Teachings VS The Book of Mormon)

So as I have started reading the sections in Thomas S. Monson book, I have read things that I don’t agree with but also things I do.  One of the things that I do agree with was in his section of the Atonement.  Now it is not that the Atonement took place in Gethsemane because it did not take place there but on the cross, but I will get to that in another post.  The part that I did agree with was on page 20 where Thomas says,

“More then 2000 years ago, Christ our Savior, was born to mortal life in a stable in Bethlehem. The long-foretold Messiah had come.” 

Did you catch that?  Did Thomas S. Monson just say that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? 

Although the Christian belief is that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, that is not what is written in the Book of Mormon. 

Alma 7:10 says, And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Now we know what the bible says,

 Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me. His origin is from antiquity, from eternity.    Micah 5:2 (HCSB)

Now this has been an issue for years because it is clearly wrong in the Book of Mormon, which is a problem because the Book of Mormon is call, “The Most Correct Book Ever Written” by the LDS church.

Now over the years, Mormons have clamed that Bethlehem was so close to Jerusalem that they where kind of one in the same.  The truth is, is that they are 6 miles apart and anyone from that area that you talk to will never say that you could say that Bethlehem was Jerusalem. or that Bethlehem was a sub community of Jerusalem, they were two different towns. 

map-1st-cent  

 Bethlehem Ephrathah - a small town near Jerusalem on the West Bank of the Jordan River; early home of David and regarded as the place where Jesus was born.

Now to be fair I want and watched a video clip from fairlds.org to see what they said. It came to my attention that as they talked about Alma 7:10, they change the verse to make it say what they wanted it to.  They change it form saying, “at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers” and they said “that he was born at the land of Jerusalem.”  But again the Book of Mormon says, “at Jerusalem which is the land…”

So the question is this, Who is wrong? Joseph Smith? The Book of Mormon? Thomas S. Monson?

One of them is wrong on this subject. We know that History and the Bible states that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and not Jerusalem.  We know that God told us that the birth would take place in Bethlehem and not in the so called land of Jerusalem.  God was clear and that is where Jesus was born. 

So today I have to give it to Thomas S. Monson for telling his people that the Book of Mormon was wrong and that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. 

END OF LINE… 

 

Thursday, October 6, 2011

Mormons and Patristic Studies

How Mormons Use the Church Fathers to Defend Mormonism

By: Chris Welborn

This article first appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 28, number 3 (2005). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

SYNOPSIS

The patristic period of church history refers to the first few centuries following the New Testament period. The Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox churches typically have held this period in higher regard than have other churches. This is not surprising, since they share many points of theology and morality from this period. These churches also claim a line of divine authority from the New Testament period through the patristic period to this day.

Mormons have studied patristic writers increasingly since the middle of the twentieth century so as to use them to justify their church’s claim to be the true church. In doing this, they presuppose without qualification that Mormon theology and practice are true, and that the same Mormon theology and practice that are prevalent in the present day also were normative in the New Testament period. They then examine patristic writings to find similarities and dissimilarities to their theology and practice. The similarities, they say, were a remnant of authentic New Testament belief. The dissimilarities, however, they blanketly attribute to Hellenistic (Greek) philosophy, which they suppose entered and corrupted the church after the apostles died. In using patristic sources, Mormons have scoured unorthodox as well as orthodox Christian writings. Many of these Mormon scholars are competent in their various fields, but their constant motive to validate Mormonism often distorts the conclusions of their study of this period.

The first 500 to 600 years after the New Testament period is referred to as the patristic period,1 a time during which many theological beliefs and ecclesiastical traditions developed and solidified. Protestants generally have little knowledge of what occurred in the church during this period. The Eastern Orthodox churches and the Roman Catholic Church have always had the most regard for the patristic period. In the earliest writings, beginning at the end of the first century, it is quite easy to see trends, practices, and beliefs developing that correspond most closely with the Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholic churches. There are, however, relatively few points of contact between the writings of the patristic period and modern conservative Protestantism apart from some similarities of Christology (the study and nature of Christ), theology proper (the study and nature of God), and morality. Protestants’ views of this period have ranged from outright rejection or indifference (Anabaptist traditions) to high regard (Anglican, Lutheran, and other “high church” denominations that claim to be lineally related to the patristic period).

THE BLACK HOLE OF CHURCH HISTORY

The notion that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also known as the LDS or Mormon Church) is even interested in the patristic period at all may come as some surprise to those who are familiar with LDS teachings. Mormons historically have taught that with the death of the New Testament apostles and prophets, divine authority left the church. This authority was reestablished in the 1800s by Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of Mormonism, who claimed to be the recipient and restorer of divine authority back to earth. Mormons claim that this authority had been lost for centuries because of the advent and supremacy of wickedness and religious corruption in the place of Christian truth. Mormons initially demonstrated little positive regard for the theological and historical formulation of Christianity after the New Testament period because of their belief in this apostasy, or falling away from the truth.

Filling the Black Hole

Like the LDS, most newly formed religious movements believe that Christianity started pure but became corrupt, resulting in a period of church history that they see as a black hole. To them, little or nothing in this black hole has real value. After a certain period of time passed, they claim, some individual or group arose at last to restore Christianity to its pure form. Divine favor now rests on the earth again, they believe, because of the presence of either the new or restored church.

In their early years, Mormons largely ignored the patristic period because of this black-hole mentality, but increasingly they have found the period useful, even essential. Mormons, like most authoritarian groups that claim either exclusive or the purest divine favor, have an ulterior motive behind their newfound interest in this period: the validation of their sect. Note, however, that denominational validation is irrevocably tied to the presupposition that a black hole existed in Christian history. Mormon scholar Kent P. Jackson says, “It is the apostasy of early Christianity which creates the very need for the [Mormon] faith: if there had not been an apostasy, there would have been no need for a restoration.”2 In other words, Mormonism would have been—and would currently be—irrelevant. This of course is unacceptable to devotees of any given sect who claim that their institution is necessary for the attainment of God’s fullest favor.

Measuring Patristic Beliefs by Mormon Standards

The fundamental standard by which Mormons measure patristic beliefs is modern LDS theology and practice. This nonnegotiable premise must be recognized in order to understand Mormon work in patristics.

Mormons have demonstrated two ways of looking at the patristic period. First, they look for what they consider incorrect theology; that is, any ancient doctrine (or practice) that does not agree with current Mormon beliefs. They believe that these teachings were the result of corruption. One of the most common explanations that modern Mormon academics use for this corruption is a line of argumentation elaborated by nineteenth-century German liberal Protestant scholar Adolph Harnack. Harnack and several contemporaries asserted that, during the patristic period, Hellenistic (Greek) philosophy entered the Christian church, secularizing and defiling true theology and ecclesiastical practice. Mormons teach that this happened because the divinely appointed officials (and hence their authority) had already left the earth. The first Mormon to use this argument was B. H. Roberts in the early twentieth century.3 Since then, Mormons have built on, elaborated, and refined this notion of corruption such that it is now a foundational construct in modern Mormon claims for an ancient apostasy.

Second, Mormons look for remnants of what they consider correct theology; that is, theology that agrees with current Mormon beliefs. To Mormons, an important feature of this alleged correct theology is that historically the Eastern and Western Catholic churches either rejected it as heretical or ignored it as incidental. Mormons inductively argue that the existence of ancient teachings that are similar to current Mormon theology is evidence that the earliest Christians in the period of purity before the apostasy also believed such theology. Mormons then assert that as the Catholic churches grew corrupt and politically dominant, they pushed this alleged true theology out of existence, suppressing it and its advocates. Mormon academicians thus pick through the proverbial patristic refuse pile for scraps of theology that actually or potentially can match their own, while scarcely touching the banquet of teaching in the Bible.4 Perhaps the reason for this is that the Bible provides a poor foundation for Mormon theology and practice. This realization drives the diligent Mormon examination of extrabiblical sources, from ancient discarded beliefs to heretical new revelation, to find support for the existence of their Church.

IMPOSING MODERN MORMON THOUGHT ONTO ANCIENT CHRISTIAN TEXTS

Hugh Nibley (1910–2005), the father of modern Mormon patristic study, educated at Brigham Young University (BYU), University of California at Los Angeles, and University of California at Berkeley, served as a beacon for other Mormon scholars. He was an example in terms of his natural intelligence and language ability, but also in his thorough knowledge of patristic and intertestamental source material. Nibley, a voracious reader, had an uncanny knack of finding ignored or discarded elements of patristic and intertestamental theology and practice. Prior to Nibley, Mormons who used patristic sources mostly looked for elements of theology that were incorrect (according to Mormon standards) and that could be attributed to corruption entering the church. Nibley was the first to search comprehensively for theology that supported Mormon beliefs and to use it competently to the advantage of Mormonism.

Roughly two generations of LDS religious scholars have arisen since Nibley. Like Nibley, most have sought graduate-level education at recognized schools outside of Utah. Unlike Nibley, whose knowledge was broad (though still surprisingly deep), most of these scholars have specialized in areas of intertestamental literature or patristics that are quite narrow. Due to the apologetic nature of their commitment to Mormonism, however, and its sustained, wide-ranging search for correct and incorrect early Christian theology, many of these scholars have successfully crossed into areas of study outside of their training.

David Paulsen, who is trained as an attorney and a philosopher, and who currently teaches at BYU in the Department of Philosophy, is one such person.5 Paulsen has done much work on patristic statements that say God is embodied and physical. He has shown, for example, that Origen (d. AD 254?) as well as Augustine (d. AD 430) wrote that some Christians variously believed that God was physical, having an embodied form.6 Tertullian (d. AD 220) went beyond these third-person affirmations and personally claimed to believe that God is physical. Then, in an excessive generalization common to Mormon scholarship regarding the patristic period, Paulsen asserts that this belief in a physical, embodied God represents the earliest widespread Christian belief. Paulsen conjectures that by the late patristic period this true (i.e., Mormon) belief was being choked out of existence by the false (i.e., non-Mormon), philosophically infused teaching of the Catholic majority, which taught instead that God the Father was a spiritual entity without a physical, bodily form.

Nibley frequently uses the same inferential logic in his chapter on the doctrine of baptism for the dead in Mormonism and Early Christianity.7 Nibley claims that the earliest Christians believed that salvation for the dead was the preeminent postresurrection message of Jesus. He presents patristic parallels to Mormon baptism for the dead that he has found in ancient Coptic inscriptions, in secret teaching alluded to by various ancient persons, in a statement by the second-century Shepherd of Hermas, and in the third-century theologian Origen.8 Nibley typically picks over incidental patristic points while he ignores the canonical Gospel accounts that nowhere show Jesus having an interest in this type of baptism. Nibley takes certain early statements that he interprets in a distinctly Mormon sense of baptism for the dead, applies these statements to the earlier time of Jesus, and arrives at a theology literally read back in time.

This method of reading modern belief back in time is common in the history of biblical interpretation. First, an individual or group finds one or two Bible verses that seem to support a peculiar theology that is already held by the individual or group. The intent of these verses is then assumed to be the same as the modern practice or belief. Once a connection has been made, no matter how weak, those Bible verses become “proof” for what must have been normative for the Christian community in the pure, original, early church. Jehovah’s Witnesses, for example, have done this with verses in Acts 15 to justify their blood restrictions, and with verses such as Acts 5:42 to justify their door-to-door ministry. Certain groups have interpreted the “keys of the kingdom” passage in Matthew 16 to support their line of authority. No one is immune from this or other types of errant biblical construction, showing the necessity of careful biblical interpretation for all persons.

CONTRIBUTIONS TO FRUITFUL PATRISTIC STUDY

Not all Mormon use of patristic sources is incorrect, biased, or sloppy. The notion that whatever Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or other unorthodox groups say is automatically incorrect is false. Conservative Protestantism often has promoted this type of thinking, at least implicitly, in regard to these groups. Arguments need to be weighed on their own merits, not on the merits of those who present them. Cults and false religious movements actually have much truth to teach Christians and serve as adversarial sharpening stones by which authentic Christianity historically has become stronger. This has occurred through the opportunity to exercise sober biblical interpretation, sound theological formulation, and careful use of reason and logic in rebutting false teaching.

Some Mormon examination of early Christian writings is competent and untainted by sweeping apologetic conclusions. This is true even at times when the motives for examination are sectarian and apologetic. Mormon scholar S. Kent Brown, for example, presents an informative study that summarizes Coptic and Greek inscriptions from ancient patristic-era Egypt.9 These inscriptions range from funerary to ornamental to liturgical and illustrate how Christians uniquely lived and believed in that time and place.

Mormon scholar Wilford Griggs, likewise, has studied Egyptian Coptic Christianity of the same period and up to AD 451, showing that it was able to grow and flourish apart from Catholicism. Egyptian Coptic Christianity was never bound to Roman authority, nor did it have a formal doctrinal structure—characteristics deemed as essential especially to Western-based Catholicism. Griggs’s implicit point, or “hidden agenda,” according to fellow Mormon reviewer Keith Norman, was that there were places and contexts where Christianity could and did flourish apart from Eastern or Western Catholicism.10 This supports and expands the thesis presented by the Protestant scholar Walter Bauer in Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity, that Catholicism was not necessarily the earliest form of orthodoxy. Catholics, rather, in the beginning were just one of many groups that claimed the name “Christian.” Those groups later labeled as “heretical” had just as much initial claim to authentic Christianity as did Catholicism.11 As Western Catholicism gained political power, however, these heretical groups were marginalized and excluded by the Catholicism that was gradually becoming orthodoxy. Griggs’s implicit argument is that if Coptic Christianity can be considered authentically “Christian” despite its distant relationship with Catholicism, then so can Mormonism be considered Christian despite its lack of relationship with other Christian denominations. Griggs’s study of Coptic Christianity is an example of reasonable scholarship, despite the forced apologetic bias that drove his study.

Perhaps Protestants could also benefit from his implicit conclusions in validating Mormonism. If Protestantism seeks to justify its authenticity, its reason for existence, apart from Catholicism, then early historical examples of other groups doing the same can prove helpful. This does not guarantee the validity and truthfulness of the teachings of any given Protestant denomination any more than it does for Mormonism, but it can prove to be illuminating and support the concept of authentic Christianity existing apart from the Catholic tradition.

DETRACTIONS FROM FRUITFUL PATRISTIC STUDY

One topic on which Mormonism seriously has misrepresented patristic thought is the theological concept of deification. Some early writers who were professing Christians made questionable statements that at first may appear to support the Mormon concept of human progression to the status of gods. Justin Martyr in the mid-second century, for example, said in his interpretation of Psalm 82 that humans could “become worthy to turn into Gods.”12 This statement appears to be similar to the Mormon concept of human exaltation to divinity. In the immediate context, however, Justin explains his meaning, saying that these persons have power “to become sons of the highest.” In other places in the same work, Justin makes it clear there is only one God, which is in striking contrast to the Mormon doctrine of human progression: “Neither will there be another God…nor was there [another God] from the beginning…besides the one making (creating) and arranging everything. Neither is [there] another God reckoned for us and another for [the Jews], but [only] that one [who] led your fathers out of Egypt.”13

Justin also states that “above God there is no other.”14 On one hand he says that humans can turn into Gods; on the other he says there is but one God. Giving Justin the benefit of the doubt that he did not contradict himself, it is unlikely that his phrase “turn into Gods” meant “to become Gods in the same sense as the biblical God,” as is assumed by Mormon authors. It is likely, rather, that he meant a human becomes a “son of God” in the sense of becoming one of God’s people, keeping God’s commands.15 In this view, a human remains human and yet becomes a son of God—ontologically distinct from the one true God—by turning from error and following the ways of the one true God.16 This interpretation accords well with Justin’s overall theology and does not make him contradict himself in terms of how many actual Gods exist, as the Mormon interpretation does.17

Other early Christian writers used deification terminology; however, most of these writers were careful to safeguard the unity of God, abundantly affirming that there is only one true God. They, therefore, could not have been using deification language in the sense of a human becoming another God in addition to the God presented in Scripture. In other words, they did not mean (as Mormons have continually misrepresented them) that humans become gods by nature (i.e., in actual being) to join a group of gods that includes the “Heavenly Father” God of Christianity.18 The church historian and Eastern Orthodox scholar Jaroslav Pelikan shows that the patristic term deification (or divinization) is synonymous with the patristic term salvation.19 Modern Eastern Catholic theologians have defined deification in the same essential way their patristic forebears did, using it to refer to salvation as participation in the communicable attributes of God’s nature (i.e., those attributes of God’s nature that can be communicated to or possessed by a human, such as holiness, power, and glory) without violating that singular divine nature.20 Eastern Orthodox writer Kallistos Ware makes this clear: “The union between God and the human beings that he has created is a union neither according to [divine] essence nor according to [person], it remains thirdly that it should be a union according to energy. The saints do not become God by essence nor one person with God, but they participate in the energies of God, that is to say, in His life, power, grace, and glory.”21

Eastern Catholic writer Vladimir Lossky concurs, saying in his interpretation of deification, “If we [humans] were able at any given moment to be united to the very essence of God…we should not at the moment be what we are, we should [,rather,] be God by nature. God would then no longer be Trinity.”22 In this case there would be many divine persons beyond the three persons of the Trinity, a notion Lossky rejects as unbiblical. The Mormon doctrine of deification results not only in multiple divine persons beyond the three in the Trinity, as Lossky demonstrates, but also in multiple divine beings beyond the one true God, which is polytheism. Mormons, moreover, not only believe this, but they assume it to have been the theology of the ancients.

Most introductory logic textbooks list a logical fallacy called equivocation that occurs when “some word or group of words is used either implicitly or explicitly in two different senses”23; that is, one word is used to mean two different things. An elephant’s trunk is not a clothes trunk; likewise, patristic and Eastern Orthodox deification is not Mormon deification, despite the fact that Mormon authors would like to think so.24 A classic example of equivocation is when Mormon authors argue that since the Christian community has considered the patristic writers and Eastern Orthodoxy to be Christian, despite having taught deification, so too should Mormons be accorded the title “Christian” despite teaching deification. Mormon deification, however, means attaining godhood within the same basic god-man nature or species as the Mormon “Heavenly Father” God. This pagan notion of deification is sharply divergent from the patristic notion of deification (or salvation), in which a human participates in the presence of God while remaining a distinctly different kind of being.25 In the latter, there remains a sharp qualitative difference between divine and human nature.26 The two natures, divine and human, have been joined only in Jesus.

RELATING MOTIVES TO PROCEDURES AND RESULTS

Certain conclusions of Mormon scholars concerning the patristic period are accurate and helpful. Their sectarian motive of trying to justify the belief that the Mormon Church is the true church, however, has led them to examine the field in an incomplete, patchwork manner. Further, in order to support their theology, Mormons sometimes have interpreted patristic works in ways that force meanings onto the texts that the authors never intended and distort the authors’ intended meanings. In such circumstances, these Mormons are predisposed to drawing faulty conclusions.

notes

1. The Latin pater means “father.” The Fathers are the first Christians who wrote after the period of the New Testament. Patristics is the study of these earliest, post-New Testament writings.

2. Kent P. Jackson, “‘Watch and Remember’: The New Testament and the Great Apostasy,” in By Study and Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh Nibley on the Occasion of His 80th Birthday, ed. J. M. Lundquist and S. D. Ricks (Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1990), 81.

3. B. H. Roberts, The Mormon Doctrine of Deity: The Roberts-Van Der Donckt Discussion (1903; repr., ed. D. L. Paulsen [Salt Lake City: Signature, 1998]), 180.

4. The Mormon Church historically has been disinterested in serious biblical exegesis, or interpretation of the Bible based on the original languages. The Church, instead, despite possessing many scholars (but no official leaders—apostles or prophets) who are competent in biblical languages, holds to a four–hundred-year-old English translation (KJV). It primarily “proof-texts” passages that agree with its existing theology—the same thing it does with patristic passages. Likewise, the Utah Mormon sect has shown little interest in serious systematic or biblical theology based on original language work.

5. Paulsen wrote his dissertation (University of Michigan, 1975) defending the Mormon concept of a limited God.

6. See, e.g., Paulsen’s “Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses,” Harvard Theological Review 83 (1990): 105–16; “The Doctrine of Divine Embodiment: Restoration, Judeo-Christian, and Philosophical Perspectives,” BYU Studies 35, 4 (1995–96): 7–94; (with Carl Griffin) “Augustine and the Corporeality of God,” Harvard Theological Review 95 (2002): 97–118.

7. Hugh Nibley, “Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Times,” in Mormonism and Early Christianity, ed. T. Compton and S. Ricks, vol. 4, The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1987), 100–167.

8. Origen claimed that John the Baptist went to a spirit prison type of place (similar to Mormon belief) and baptized persons in anticipation of Jesus’ imminent arrival.

9. S. Kent Brown, “Coptic and Greek Inscriptions from Christian Egypt: A Brief Review,” The Roots of Egyptian Christianity, ed. B. Pearson et al. (Philadelphia: Augsburg Fortress Publishers, 1986), 26–41.

10. This was Griggs’s doctoral dissertation at UC Berkeley. C. W. Griggs, Early Egyptian Christianity: From Its Origins to 451 C.E., no. 2, Coptic Studies Series (New York: E. J. Brill, 1990). Reviewed by K. Norman, BYU Studies 31 (Spring 1991): 183–87.

11. Walter Bauer, Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity (1934; 2nd ed. repr., ed. R. Kraft and G. Krodel [Philadelphia: Fortress, 1971]).

12. Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 124. Author’s translations here and subsequently.

13. Ibid., 11.

14. Ibid., 56.

15. Ibid., 123–24.

16. Ibid., 95.

17. See Justin, 1 Apology 6, 9, 41 “all the gods of the nations are devil-idols”; Dialogue, 55, 73, 123–24.

18. See especially Keith Norman, “Deification: The Content of Athanasian Soteriology.” Ph.D. diss., Duke University, 1980. Norman (a Mormon) incredibly argues that deification by nature is exactly what Athanasius meant in using this terminology and concept. Athanasius, however, like the rest of the patristic writers who use deification terminology, was very careful to safeguard the unity of the divine nature, in contrast to the creation.

19. Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971), 155, 266, 345. Deification has been retained by the Eastern Catholics but redefined by the Western Catholics.

20. Mormon scholars are divided on this point. Stephen Robinson, for example, assumes current Eastern Orthodox conceptions of deification to be essentially the same as patristic notions, whereas Daniel Peterson thinks Eastern Orthodoxy has deviated from the earliest patristic notions. See, e.g., Robinson’s use in Are Mormons Christians? (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1991), 61–63. This is in contrast to Peterson, “‘Ye are Gods’: Ps. 82 and Jn. 10 as Witnesses to the Divine Nature of Humankind,” in The Disciple as Scholar: Essays on Scripture and the Ancient World in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson, ed. S. Ricks, D. Parry, and A. Hedges (Provo, UT: FARMS, 2000), 552–53; so also Daniel Peterson, Stephen Ricks: “We suspect, in fact, that even relatively late statements on theosis [i.e., deification] represent the Hellenization of an earlier doctrine—one that was perhaps much closer to Mormon belief” (Offenders for a Word [Provo, UT: FARMS, 1992], 92).

21. Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way (Crestwood, NY: SVS Press, 1979), 168.

22. Vladimir Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church (1944; repr. Crestwood, NY: SVS Press, 1998), 69–70.

23. Patrick Hurley, A Concise Introduction to Logic, 7th ed. (Belmont, CA: Wadsworth, 2000), 681.

24. Contrary to most patristic scholars, Mormon scholar Keith Norman argues at length in his “Deification: The Content of Athanasian Soteriology” that this is what Athanasius meant. He then goes on to assert a contradictory tension between Athanasius’s desire to safeguard the single divine nature and his teaching of human deification.

25. Many ancient Greek and Roman pagans believed that the gods had once been mortal humans who had become gods upon death—in a qualitative fashion very similar to the Mormon belief. Put simply, the gods were just bigger, better, “promoted” humans. This is ironic in light of the Mormon charge that Christian orthodoxy was corrupted by Greek and Roman pagan influence.

26. Jordan Vajda, formerly a Dominican Roman Catholic priest but now a Mormon, delineates this difference in Partakers of the Divine Nature: A Comparative Analysis of the Patristic and Mormon Doctrines of Divinization. (Published as Occasional Paper No. 3. [Provo, UT: FARMS, 2002], and in his M.A. Thesis [Graduate Theological Union, University of California, Berkeley, 1998]).

What does the bible say…

“By obedience to God’s commandments, we can qualify for that ‘house’ spoken of by Jesus when He declared: “In my Father’s house are many mansions. … I go to prepare a place for you … that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:2-3)” (Thomas S. Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p. 54. Ellipses in original).

“God our Father, and Jesus Christ, our Lord, have marked the way to perfection. They beckon us to follow eternal verities and to become perfect, as they are perfect (see Matthew 5:48; 3 Nephi 12:48)” (Thomas S. Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p. 54).

Here are 2 quotes from Thomas s. Monson.  Now the question I have is, if members of the LDS clam to Believe in the Bible then what about these verse?

6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace. Romans 11:6 (HCSB)

justification: The act of God as judge that declares sinners (who were in the "wrong") to be "right" or righteous in His sight.  He is just in doing this because Jesus died on the cross to take away their sins and to give them His own righteousness (2 Cor 5:21). The sinner receives this justification by faith and by grace when he trusts Christ's work.

Jesus did the work, we only have to have faith and repent of our sins and we are saved. 

For all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.       Romans 10:13

If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:9-10 (HCSB)

Looks like the bible says something else.

END OF LINE…

Wednesday, October 5, 2011

A Challenge for Mormons

For the members of the LDS Church that clam I know nothing of there faith, I want to set up a Challenge.  Last night I ordered a copy of “Teachings of Thomas S. Monson” and I plan to read a chapter and then write a review on each Chapter based on what the bible says and what past LSD prophets have said. 

Teachings-of-Thomas-S-Monson-is-a-companion-to

But as I read this book and take notes and write on them I ask for any Mormon to read a book from a Christian writer and see what we have to say.  (Below is a list of books you should pick from)

  • The Mormon Mirage by Latayne C. Scott
  • Mormonism Unmasked by R. Philip Roberts
  • 3:16 The Number of Hope by Max Lucado
  • Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe by Mark Driscoll
  • Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
  • Vintage Jesus by Mark Driscoll
  • The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke And John) and Romans in the ether the NIV or The Holman Christian Stander Bible

All these books you can find on Amazon. Will you take this Challenge, I am

END OF LINE…

Tuesday, September 20, 2011

Saturday, September 10, 2011

Deuteronomy 18:21-22

21 You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 When a prophet speaks in the Lord’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.          Deuteronomy 18:21-22 (HCSB)

Here is a set of verses that we don’t use anymore.  a lot of pastor and churches around the world care to much about looking SUPER FRIENDLY and they do not want any finger pointed. 

This is the wrong thing to do as Christians.  Now I am not saying we should point fingers over a small issue like ones view on end times, but  like  Harold Camping, then we can point fingers.

Over the years there has been a lot of people proclaiming to foretell what's to come. The issue is that when a person tries to be a Prophet and is wrong, the bible tells us that one is not from God and should not hear him or believe him or follow him.  more so verse 20 of Deuteronomy 18 says they should be put to death. 

Now I am not saying that we should go out and put these people to death, because I am not going to be their judge.  We can point fingers.

10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.  Titus 1:10-16

So let me ask this question, Are you going to follow a person to is a false teacher or false prophet? 

As I write this I wonder if anyone is still going to Harold Camping church and listens to his radio show?  last week as I drove through Salt Lake City, I saw one of the billboards for his May 21 end times that did not come.

I was talking to a Mormon over the internet about this and asked him if he would believe someone like Harold Camping. someone who a number of times told of things to come, but they never did, a false prophet?  He told me that he would never follow a person who told him falsehood and then I asked him why he is a Mormon.  when he asked me what I was talking about, I started to inform him about the 56 false prophecies of Joseph Smith.

36 And also the Lord shall have apower over his bsaints, and shall creign in their dmidst, and shall come down in ejudgment upon fIdumea, or the world.

37 aSearch these bcommandments, for they are true and cfaithful, and the prophecies and dpromises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my aword shall not pass away, but shall all be bfulfilled, whether by mine own cvoice or by the dvoice of my eservants, it is the fsame. D&C 1:36-38

Now I have had a lot of Mormons tell that, “Maybe something did happen or something was not right and God did not allow it to come to pass.”  well again, D&C 1 says that they will be fulfilled. so again the question is why do Mormons follow Joseph Smith when he told 56 false prophecies? 

A Sample of Joseph Smith's
False Prophecies

  1. Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84)
    No longer teach the gathering and temple never built.
  2. Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19)
    Mormons driven out.
  3. Army to redeem Zion (Independence, MO) (D&C 103)
    Mission unsuccessful. V.30-34 God seems to be unsure about how large an army to raise.
  4. Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87)
    England and other nations did not join in.
  5. United Order (D&C 104)
    V.1 Commanded as everlasting order; V.48 & 53 dissolved and reorganized.
  6. Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111)
    No riches found, debts not paid.
  7. Apostle Patten to go on mission in Spring 1839 (D&C 114)
    He was shot in Oct. of 1838. Wouldn't God have known he was going to die before the next spring?
  8. New gathering place and temple in Far West (D&C 115)
    LDS driven out, never built the temple.
  9. Build a temple in Nauvoo and house for Smiths (D&C 124)
    Temple and house not completed.
  10. Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15)
    Christ did not return.
  11. US Government must redress wrongs or be destroyed (History of the Church, vol.5, p.394, vol.6, p.116 and Millennial Star, vol.22, p.455.)
    It doesn't and is not destroyed.
  12. Three grand keys to test Messengers (D&C 129)
    No known reference where any LDS church leader ever used this test. Does God give meaningless revelations?

www.utlm.org

Here are 12 but only 1 makes you a false prophet according to the bible and D&C chapter 1.  the word is not from God and he is false. 

So what are you going to do?

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