What Mormons Believe About: God, man, Jesus, salvation, Bible/authority, and the afterlife

What Mormons Believe About:

God, man, Jesus, salvation, Bible/authority, and the afterlife

By Rev. Wil R. Hoffmann

God: All members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS or Mormon Church) will tell you they believe in God and Jesus and even point out that Jesus is in the name of their church. However, just because they say they believe and worship God and Jesus, they do not believe in the Trinity as the Bible defines it, and therefore do not believe in the same God as we do. So who is God, also known as Heavenly father or Elohim, in the teachings of the LDS church?

1. God is an exalted man. Joseph Smith taught that, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!”1

This belief comes from the idea that Heavenly Father was once a man on another planet that followed the teachings of the LDS Church on his planet. After dying and going to the 3rd level of Heaven, he was given a planet to rein over by his god.

2. God is not Spirit but is a man of flesh and bone. Joseph Smith said, “That which is without body or parts is nothing. There is no God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones.”2

3. Heavenly Father is the literal father of Jesus. President Joseph F. Smith (1838-1918) taught: “God the Eternal Father…is the literal parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race….We are God’s children.”3

This teaching is that god came down in the flesh and knew Mary to conceive Jesus.

Jesus: According to Mormon doctrine, both God and Jesus came to Joseph Smith to tell him that all denominations were false. This again points to the belief that God and Jesus are two different people. Although Jesus is in the name of the LDS church, their doctrine on Jesus is not found in the bible.

1. Jesus is not God but a god. Within the LDS church, Jesus was a man; however he became a god by his father bestowing it on him even before he came to earth. Jesus was the first-born child of Heavenly Father and one of his wives. When Heavenly Father decided to pick a savior for the people of earth, he had to choose between his first-born Jesus and his second-born Satan. Both brought their case for why they should be savior, and Heavenly Father picked Jesus.

“Christ attained Godhood while yet in pre-existence, he too stood as a God to the other spirits, but this relationship was not the same one of personal parenthood that prevailed between the Father and his offspring.”4

Because of this, Satan rebelled and left Heaven, and Jesus was sent to earth to be savior of the people.

2. Jesus needed to be saved by God. “Even Christ himself was not perfect at first; he received not a fulness [sic] at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness [sic]”5

3. Jesus is our Spirit brother and the brother of Satan. “The oldest child in our heavenly family was Jesus Christ. He is our oldest brother.”6

The teaching of the LDS Church is that all mankind are spirit children of Heavenly Father and his wives. Jesus was the first-born spirit child and Satan was the second-born spirit child. Through this understanding everyone is a spirit child of god and one of his wives. Therefore we are all spirit brother and sisters.

Man: Men and women are the spirit children of Heavenly Father and his wives. Man was once with God in heaven and then was sent to earth. If man follows the teachings of the LDS Church, then when he passes away he will be able to return to his heavenly father and mother.

1. Men can become gods. The understanding behind this is that man is the same species as God. Because of this, if men keep to the teachings of the LDS Church and meet the requirements established by the LDS Church, then they can be given their own planet by their Heavenly Father. “God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement.”7

Also, a point to note is that only men can reach godhood. Women are subject to the actions of their husbands, even to the point of their salvation.

2. Mankind was with God before they were on earth. “We lived before we came here and our birth into this world was the reward of having kept our first estate.”8 Within the LDS Church, it is commonly known that before we came to earth, we were with God in heaven. We just cannot remember that time. This is what is known as the preexistence and is historically understood that Heavenly Father conceived the people of the world with one of his many wives in heaven.

After some time in Heaven, we are picked to come to earth and forget our preexistence. Then man works his way back to God through the teachings of the LDS Church.

Bible/authority: When it comes to understand the Scriptures and authority of the LDS Church, one has to understand that the Mormon faith is, in a sense, is a living religion. Scripture and authority are always changing and can change at any time. Within the LDS Church there are four books of scripture (Holy Bible KJV, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price). With these books of scripture, the LDS Church also has a Living Prophet (Thomas S. Monson) that dictates their beliefs.

1. Members of the LDS church do use the King James Bible. To many members of the LDS Church, the Holy Bible in the King James Version is their first book of scripture. However, they believe “the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.”9

It was taught by Joseph Smith that he believed the Bible was correct when it was written by the original authors. But over time and bad translators, the Bible lost its true meaning and was corrupt and has led many astray.

So, today’s members of the LDS Church read the bible but understand it as told to them by the leadership of the Mormon Church.

2. Along with the King James Bible, the LDS Church has other scriptures. Most people know about the Book of Mormon and that it is known as “another testament of Jesus Christ.”“The Book of Mormon is a sacred record of some of the people who lived on the American continents between about 2000 B.C. and A.D. 400. It contains the fulness [sic] of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon tells of the visit Jesus Christ made to the people in the Americas soon after His Resurrection.”10

This is one of the most recognized items that Mormon missionaries will have and want to give you when they come to your door. However, the King James Bible and The Book of Mormon are only two of the four books of scriptures.

The other two books are Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

Doctrine and Covenants contains “revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith. It also includes a few revelations given to other latter-day prophets. This book of scripture is unique because it is not a translation of ancient documents. It is a collection of revelations given by the Lord to His chosen prophets in the latter days.”11

The revelations given to the prophets are something that is still happening today. At any time the Prophet/ President of the LDS Church, Thomas Monson, can have a “revelation” that would be voted on at the LDS General Conference and then added to Doctrine and Covenants. (The last addition to Doctrine and Covenants took place on June 8, 1978, dealing with the subject of allowing all worthy males to hold the priesthood. This came because it was found out that there were no African American priesthood holders. This is because at one time it was believed that people with dark skin where not worthy to hold high positions in the church.)

The Pearl of Great Price contains the book of Moses, the book of Abraham, The Articles of Faith and some inspired writings of Joseph Smith. The inspired writings of Joseph Smith are his interpretation of the Gospel of Matthew and the History of Joseph Smith.

3. The most important authority of the LDS is the President. The Prophet, Seer, and Revelator are all names to describe the President and leader or the LDS Church. From the first Prophet Joseph Smith to the sixteenth and current Prophet Thomas S. Monson, there is no greater authority in the Mormon Church.

The trust of the leadership of the LDS Church is strong among the members. They truly believe that he is God’s called servant, and whatever is said by the Prophet through his teaching can be counted as the Word of God.

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts four books as scripture: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These books are called the standard works of the Church. The inspired words of our living prophets are also accepted as scripture.”12

Salvation: Salvation in the LDS church is worked based. It focuses on the work that people do for their own spiritual growth, the LDS Church, and helping others in need. For salvation in a person’s life within the LDS church, three things must be involved: 1. Works of the person; 2. Jesus; and 3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

1. You’re saved by grace but you also need work. In the Book of Mormon it teaches that your works are a huge part of your salvation. 2 Nephi 25:23 says, “For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” This points to the idea that the one doing most of the work is man and Jesus makes up the rest.

This belief points clearly that man has to keep the commands of God and the LDS Church to be saved. Jesus is not enough and this point is taught many times through the LDS Church.

“Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone, ‘for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do.’”13

2. You have to be a member of the LDS Church to be saved. When Joseph Smith started this new religion in the 1800’s, he preached that all other churches are wrong and have become apostate. Joseph Smith taught that he restored the one true church that had been lost since the passing of the apostles.

“If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”14

This is a key reason why LDS missionaries, even if you tell them you go to church, will still evangelize to you at your door. This is because they believe that salvation is not found outside the LDS Church.

3. Salvation can be a family thing. One of the strongest aspects of the LDS Church and one of the main reasons people convert to the Mormon faith is because of their dedication to family. Family forever is the teaching that a family, through the father, can be sealed in an LDS temple and remain together forever. Boiled down, the salvation of the family relies on the father of the family.

This position even states that if a child of a sealed family at some point stops going to church and even states he is no longer a Mormon, the sealing of the family still allows that child/ person to be with his family in Heaven.

Afterlife: When you talk to Mormons about Heaven, they will always talk about “going to be where God is.” For most people this means Heaven, but for the members of the LDS Church this means the 3rd level or the highest level of Heaven. Within Mormon doctrine they teach that there are three levels of Heaven. The Celestial Kingdom (highest, where God is.), the Terrestrial Kingdom (Middle), and the Telestial Kingdom (lowest).

With three levels of Heaven, one would assume that there would be levels of Hell. However, the LDS Church does not believe in Hell as Christian’s understand it. They believe in a place known as outer darkness, described as “where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.”15 But it is just understood as a place of darkness, and only a handful of people are there.

1. God and Jesus are only in the highest level of Heaven. When it comes to the afterlife for a member of the LDS Church, they want to be where God is. Heavenly Father is only in the highest level of Heaven, the Celestial Kingdom.

The only way for a someone to reach this level of Heaven is by being a member of the Mormon Church, being allowed to enter the Temple, paying his tithes, being married and sealed to his wife/ family in the temple, and by holding the priesthood and doing works for the church.

2. The other two levels are for everyone else. Most people within an evangelical church will go to the Terrestrial Kingdom (middle or second level). This place is for those who are Christians but were not part of the LDS Church. The Terrestrial Kingdom is for almost everyone else.

3. Outer darkness only has a handful of people in it. “Outer Darkness. These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever.”16

When talking to any member of the LDS Church, they will tell you that this means only members of the LDS Church that have been given a testimony of Jesus Christ, yet have rejected that knowledge, are in outer darkness, and that number is only a handful.

Because of these statements, the realization that almost everyone is in a level of Heaven comes clear. No matter who you are or what you do, you will go to Heaven. However, Mormons work hard through their church events, outreach, and community clubs so that they may reach the 3rd level, the Celestial Kingdom where God is.

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1 Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345.

2 Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church – Joseph Smith, p. 42.

3 Joseph F. Smith, “The Nature of the Godhead,” Ensign, January 2006, p. 51.

4 Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323

5 Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68.

6 Gospel Fundamentals, 2002, p. 5

7 John A. Widtsoe, Rational Theology, 1915, p. 61

8 George Albert Smith, Conference Reports, October 1926, p. 103. George Albert Smith was the 8th President of the LDS church.

9 Article Eight, Articles of Faith in the Pearl of Great Price

10 Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 46

11 True to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, 2004, p. 158

12 Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 45

13 James Faust, Ensign, November 2001, p. 18

14 Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 670

15 Doctrine and Covenants 101:91

16Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 273

An open letter to Glenn Beck…from a “monster”

Can be found on Mormonism Research Ministry (www.mrm.org) By Eric Johnson

An open letter to Glenn Beck…from a “monster”

By Eric Johnson

Note: On April 25^th, 2014, Glenn Beck addressed the student body at Liberty University (LU) at a tri-weekly gathering called “convocation.” (You can watch the talk here.) While each student must attend the service or face a $10 fine--it was no different for Beck's talk--the entire faculty and staff at Liberty were also required to attend, which doesn't always happen. (Because the arena was filled, they watched on cable television in other rooms.) Beck spoke on the history of the Bible, mentioned Joseph Smith and his “martyrdom,” and insinuated that the unique LDS teaching of preexistence is true. Later that morning, MRM published my response titled “What Glenn Beck Didn’t Explain at this Morning’s Convocation Talk.”

Within a day, we received five separate emails (four LU students and an LU professor), all saying they agreed with the article. (You can see the student posts listed at the bottom of the article linked above. In addition, a two-part blog will be published next week on Mormon Coffee that will respond to LU’s defense of the issue.) While one LU official personally told me that the university hoped this controversial issue would just fade away, Glenn Beck decided to revisit the topic in a scathing article published on May 20, 2014 titled “”A Land of Monsters’: Beck Fires Back at Those Attacking Liberty University for Inviting Him to Speak."  Instead of letting the issue die, Mr. Beck aims directly at those folks (like myself) who believed he should not have been allowed to speak on spiritual issues from a pulpit at a prestigious Christian university. With that as a background, allow me to respond as I reprint his entire article (underlined) followed by my response.

Dear Mr. Beck

I have read your May 20^th article titled ‘A Land of Monsters’: Beck Fires Back at Those Attacking Liberty University for Inviting Him to Speak.

Your staff member wrote, Glenn Beck was the featured convocation speaker at Liberty University on April 25, and it didn’t take long for critics to begin attacking the university for inviting him to speak. But Beck said on his radio program Tuesday that many of the attacks haven’t actually come from the left.

The words "attacks" and “attacking”. . . what exactly did your writer mean by that? Wouldn’t you consider these loaded words? Johnnie Moore, the senior vice president of LU who serves directly under President Jerry Falwell, Jr., told me that he received about 20 emails concerning your visit. Apparently all but one criticized Liberty's choice. (The only one who wrote to agree was written by an LDS student who attends LU--go figure!) Why was there such an uproar? I think this quote from your talk epitomized what the writers felt was wrong:

I share your faith. I am from a different denomination, and a denomination quite honestly that I'm sure can make many people at Liberty feel uncomfortable. I am a Mormon, but I share your faith in the atonement of the Savior Jesus Christ.

One of the writers shared her letter with me (her name is taken out, but otherwise it is intact):

Dear Johnnie Moore,

My name is ______________ and I am a former student of Liberty University. I still have many friends at LU and so I usually see the LU news on my facebook, the most recent being Glenn Beck's speech in convocation. With all due respect, Sir, leaving Mr. Beck's words without explanation is extremely detrimental to your students' faith and blurs the line between Christianity and Mormonism, which cannot be combined. Let me briefly explain:

I have grown up in a very Mormonized part of Idaho. I have worked in theatre companies that are almost exclusively Mormon. In my junior year I transferred to Liberty from a college where I was one of only six non-Mormons in the entire department (professors included). Friends at LU asked what a Mormon was and I was utterly shocked! The Mormon temple is less than two minutes from my house - “Holiness to the Lord, the House of the Lord” is written on its steeple while the angel Moroni stands blowing his golden trumpet at the peak. In short, I understand Mormonism. I speak Mormon. Sir, what is so deceptive about this particular religion is that it uses the same vocabulary as Christianity, but it has different definitions. When they say “Jesus,” it is not the same Jesus. When they say “salvation,” it is not the same salvation. When they say “heaven,” you must ask, “Which one?” (There are three heavens and you can't get to the top one unless you're married, either in this life or the afterlife.) At the risk of sounding harsh, Mormonism is a very sneaky and deceptive religion which hijacks Christianity in a very clever way: by masquerading as Christianity.

I remember Mormons animatedly insisting that they were NOT Christian - they were MORMON. Now the tide has turned, as it so often does in Mormonism. It is now the goal of Mormonism to be accepted as a mainstream Christian denomination. Glenn Beck, in his convo speech, included himself as part of a Christian denomination, and to uninformed LU students, it probably sounded like he was just that.

The message in Eric Johnson's article - "What Glenn Beck didn't explain at yesterday morning's convocation talk at Liberty University" - is exactly what myself and many other students tried to express to LU faculty last year before Mitt Romney gave the commencement speech - the closing cap at "the biggest Christian university in the world." Christians over here in the West spend much time trying to unravel Mormonism for Mormon people, many of whom don't even know the history of their own church. Please understand that when Liberty University – “the biggest Christian university in the world” - asks a Mormon leader to speak, knowing that his words sound dangerously Christian, it undoes everything Christians over here in the West (and even in the East) have tried to do. In Mormon eyes, it equates Mormonism and Christianity. To Mormons, when “the biggest Christian university in the world” accepts Mormon speakers (especially as a commencement speaker), it is an affirmation of Mormonism as Christianity.

Sir, as a recent Liberty student who understands the predicament of the West, I beg you to differentiate between these two religions. I love my Mormon friends - they are wonderful people - but to equate Mormonism and Christianity is to adopt heresy. Once more, it is heresy that uses the same vocabulary but different definitions – a wolf in sheep's clothing, if you will. Mormonism Research Ministry has graciously offered to speak on this very topic at no charge, and as a university that cites Mormonism as a cult in their theology courses, I think it would be a huge step in the right direction if Liberty were to take them up on that offer.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

__________________

Mr. Beck, how exactly should this woman's words be attributed as an “attack” on Liberty? It sounds to me that, while there certainly is a disagreement, this is anything but an “attack.” What this lady did is how civilized people let the leaders of an institution know when they disagree with their actions. Sending emails and letters along with making phone calls is a right we have. As a parent of a 2014 Liberty grad, I have this same right, as do those who don't have any connections at all with LU. The word “attack” should be reserved for the actions of lynch mobs or terrorists. Of course, I am not privy to the other correspondence sent to LU, but I would think that the letter above is very typical of the criticism communicated to the university. 

Perhaps you didn't intend to focus your barb at the lady above but rather were thinking more about Christian apologists like me. Please understand, my criticism was not aimed so much at you as it was the leadership of the school. You have every right to say what you want. You certainly took full advantage at Liberty’s last convocation to speak on a topic that was sure to rile the critics who take their Christianity seriously.  In fact, you admitted at the beginning of your talk that you had changed your message from what you origianlly planned to say.

According to the LU administration, what you said about your Mormonism surprised them. They claimed that they had no idea you would speak about Mormons belonging to a “different denomination,” the integrity of Joseph Smith, or the assumption that preexistence is true. After all, they don't require the speakers to submit an outline of their talks, so maybe they shouldn't have been surprised. However, I think you are well-versed in the differences between our faiths to know that most people wouldn’t catch the subtleties. When your company live-streamed your sermon and made it available for everyone in the world to see, you had to know that there would be some out there who would be better versed in Mormonism than the audience in that Liberty arena. Could it be that you knew your talk would generate controversy? It almost seems that way, which doesn't appear very thoughful if you really cared about the school and the leaders there who continue to speak so highly of you. The university, not you, has taken most of the flak. Until now.

You are right that the criticism originated from those in Christian circles who probably hold very similar values as you. For instance, politically, you and I are much closer than many, as I too am conservative. Socially, we would agree on issues like abortion and homosexual marriage. Spiritually, though, we are worlds apart. Just as you probably wouldn’t consider your disagreement with Obamacare, liberal legislation, and independent judicial rulings as “attacks,” please don’t label our disagreement with Liberty officials in the same way. You and I may not see eye-to-eye on certain issues, but as human beings and fellow Americans, may I please request that you have more respect by allowing for differences and dealing with these at a table of dialogue? It is you who seems to be on the "attack," as you begin your article by using "land of monsters," a negative remark about those with whom you disagree. Could we agree to avoid the ad hominem attacks in future dialogue so we can focus on the issues at hand? 

“Liberty University is being smeared, absolutely smeared, and they’re being smeared by religious people [who] claim to be followers of Christ,” Beck remarked. “Now, I’ve read the Bible several times, and I just can’t find the place where Jesus hates.”

I had to reread this several times  just to make sure I understood what you were trying to say. “Absolutely smeared”? You need to provide evidence that a “smear” campaign was attempted by “religious people." A more complete explanation combined with evidence to support your accusation is necessary to validate your claim.

Then you say that you've "read the Bible several times, and I just can’t find the place where Jesus hates.” Allow me to provide three passages--one from each Sypnotic Gospel writer--quoting Jesus who was dealing with the religious leaders of his day: 

Mark 12:38-42:

As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”

Luke 11:37-52:

When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal. Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. . . . “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

Matthew 23:1ff

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. . . . 

“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ You blind fools! . . . “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. . . . You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. . . . “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

I would agree that Jesus didn't use hate speech to put the Pharisees in their place. Yet how many liberals would consider Jesus’s mere disagreement and choice words as somehow hateful and even contradicting what He said in Matthew 7:1? Indeed Jesus was quite colorful in calling human beings—if Mormonism’s view of preexistence is true, they too are “children of God”— “blind guides,” “hypocrites,” “child(ren) of hell,” “fools,” “whitewashed tombs” “full of the bones of the dead,” “full of hypocrisy and wickedness,” “snakes,” “brood of vipers,” and ultimately people who are “condemned to hell." Reread the letter from the former student above and then look over Jesus’s words once more. Is it really fair to say that LU (or even you) has been “smeared”? Something tells me there is no comparison. The Jesus you picture, meek and mild, just doesn't hold water when the facts are entertained, even though this goes against the popular conception that the Savior would have never criticized anyone.

Beck said there’s a group of people who identify themselves as Christians, but always seem to “have a problem” with him and men like historian David Barton.

I’m not sure how Christian historian David Barton has anything to do with your speaking at LU. Yes, the critics of LU are Christians who are very concerned about Liberty's policy of allowing a Latter-day Saint using religious jargon and emotional language to make Mormonism sound the same as the Christianity taught by the Bible department at LU. You may still feel that the critics are without reason for their criticism. If so, allow me to use a passage from the Bible (2 John 7-11) to provide more detail: 

I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

Let’s dissect these verses. First of all, John warns against deceivers in the same way Jesus did in Matthew 7:15, which says:

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”

Jesus said we will know these false teachers by their fruit. And then, in 2 John 7, we see that wrong doctrine is “bad” fruit. You may read verse 7 and, with a smile, say, “But Mormons do believe that Jesus came in the flesh.” Literally, this is true, as your leaders have taught the Jesus came to this earth through the Virgin Birth, a direct result of a physical union between Elohim (Heavenly Father) and Mary. (For those doubting what I am saying, please see herefor more details.) Mormonism's view of Jesus is much different than what is taught at LU, which has been admitted by your leadership. For example, one of your former apostles had this to say about the differences:

“And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 269).

Consider what fifteenth President Gordon B. Hinckley had to say:

“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages’” (“Crown of Gospel is Upon Our Heads, Church News, June 20, 1998, p. 7).

Four years later he said,

“As a church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some sub­stance to what they say” (“We look to Christ,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2002, p. 90).

I agree with your general authorities in saying that the Jesus of Mormonism is different than the Jesus worshipped by millions of Christians around the world. Because this is true, what is John’s advice? He said that those teaching such a false gospel should not be allowed in the "house." What does this mean? Should Christians invite the missionaries into their homes? The context of the day gives a different perspective. Because the Christians in those early days met in homes, very similar to our Sunday church services today, they were not supposed to let false teachers introduce heretical doctrines from the pulpits. Doing so, verse 11 says, is the same as “shar(ing) in their wicked work.” Thus, John is instructing the churches to keep the sheep (Christians) safe by not allowing any wolves to share their corrupt philosophies.

I realize that Liberty officials do not think their convocation is the same as a “chapel” or “worship” service. It is a place, Mr. Moore has written, that allows for a variety of viewpoints. Yet musical worship to God, combined with prayer before and after the talk, play major roles in all convocation services where the pulpit (although LU officials don’t like that term, I'll still use it) is given over to someone like you, Mr. Beck. You changed whatever message you originally were going to bring so you could present what turned out to be a confusing talk, leaving many students thinking that Mormonism and their Christianity were one and the same. Shame on Liberty's administrators for allowing students to possibly walk away convinced that your spiritual view is aligned with theirs. And shame on you for taking advantage of the situation.

“I want to make it really, really super clear: there is no difference between the people who are currently trying to take down Liberty University because they’re ‘not Christian enough,’ or me because I’m ‘not a Christian,’ [and] the people who are trying to run other people out of the square.”

This is nothing more than rhetoric. How can our belief that you shouldn't have been allowed to taken the pulpit at LU be the same as running “people out of the square"? You have every right to talk about your political and spiritual views. (In fact, you have dedicated whole television shows to Book of Mormon issues.) Your platform is your “square" and you have every right to your beliefs. However, the administrators at the largest Christian university in the world had the right to (or not to) invite you to speak to their students. They chose to let you come, and it is my opinion that this was not a wise choice. Still, nobody is running you out of the "square."

Think about it this way, Mr. Beck. What are the possibilities that I could speak at your church’s next general conference? What do you mean that I would never be allowed? Isn't this discriminatory? Yes, it is, and your leaders have every right to discriminate! In the same way Liberty’s officials should have been more discriminatory in who they allow to speak at convocation on spiritual topics. And asking the university's officials to not allow someone from another religion to address the student body on spiritual issues is well within our (my) rights.

“This is why your churches are dwindling,” Beck continued. “You think you’re standing for something, when indeed, you’re standing for hate and bigotry. I think Jesus was hanging out with prostitutes and sinners, wasn’t he? You won’t even listen to a man who says … ‘I challenge you to know your faith, not my faith, your faith so well that you’re willing to die for it. Stand with one another.’ That frightens you so much? If it does, you might want to consider that you’re on the wrong side.”

Mr. Beck, you lose me when you trot out the “hate” card. For Pete’s sake, you sound more like a political liberal than the conservative you are supposed to be. Should I take your disagreement against me (and my position that Liberty shouldn’t have invited you to speak) as hateful? You can’t win with the hate card and I suggest hanging up this stale maneuver once and for all.

As far as Jesus “hanging out” with prostitutes and sinners, these were the folks who knew they were lost as they often beat their chests in seeking repentance. They understood that forgiveness could only come through a contrite heart and they recognized they were sinners. Forgiveness cannot come without the understanding that we have fallen way short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23)

This brings me to a quote from Mr. Moore, as reported by the Religion News Service article published on Monday, May 19. He said that “many conservative evangelical leaders who are closer to Beck than me have told me that they believe Beck has had a born again experience recently. “

Mr. Beck, is this true? (You would know better than anyone else, right?) Do you believe that you have had a “born again” experience?  I would love to see you become a Christian, yet in your talk, you clearly stated that you remain a “Mormon.” To support this, you spoke highly of Mormonism's founder Joseph Smith--a man who repudiated the basic beliefs of the historic Christian faith--and you uphold the doctrine of the "first estate" (preexistence). Correct me if I’m wrong, but I am betting that you would fully agree with Smith who said that “being born again comes by the Spirit of God through ordinances.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 162)

Let me ask a few other questions to get more clairty:

• Do you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation?
• Do you beleive that a person must get a temple recommend and get sealed for not only time but eternity?
• Do you think drinking tea or coffee should prohibit a person from going to the temple? 

If your answers are all affirmative, then what exactly do you think Mr. Moore means when he suggests you have had a recent “born again experience"? If you have left Mormonism and become a born again Christian, let us all know. If he's wrong, perhaps you might want to clarify this issue with him so he doesn't assume something that is not true. There are sins of commission, but there are also sins of ommission. 

Beck said America is “turning into a land of monsters.”

“I look at every single lover of light and truth as my ally, my friend, my brother,” he said. “I look at everyone who is my enemy as my brother. I don’t care what you say; I don’t care what you think your belief is; I don’t care what your lifestyle is — you’re not going to change me. And I invite you to join me, join others of multiple faiths — never asking anyone to change their faith — asking you to strengthen your faith, whatever it is.”

Do you believe President Obama is your brother? (I’ve heard your show before and you’ve said some pretty harsh things about our nation's President.) And if I were to ask Mr. Obama what he thought of you, would he call you a "monster"? Yes, it goes both ways. By calling your enemy a "brother," are you referring to nothing more than Mormoism's teaching that all people are spirit brothers and sisters going back to the preexistence? Or do you mean that as brothers we should all agree with one another? A little more clarity here would be appreciated in your response.

Beck said he wants “nothing to do with you” if your religion is telling you to “kill people, burn their books, shut them up, torture them, imprison them.”

Are you serious? How did my disagreement with Liberty's invitation to you create me into a “monster” who wants to “kill people, burn (your) books, shut (you) up, torture (you), imprison (you).” Sounds like the type of rhetoric offered by the Nazis in the early 1930s! See, this is what waving the hate card does to a person. If disagreement with someone leads to this type of accusation, then perhaps you need to look in the mirror yourself, Mr. Beck, when giving such a diatribe, as your words should also apply to you as well. As Matthew 19 as quoted above mentions, hypocrites are not favored by Jesus!

“[But] if your faith says: learn about love, learn about goodness, learn about the power of faith, learn about the miracles of God … I’d love to meet you,” he said. “And I’d love to be around you.”

Let’s have lunch, Mr. Beck, and discuss this in a civil manner. Let’s lay the differences on the table and, using good communication tactics, fairly explain why we disagree. Let's stay away from good cop, bad cop. Instead, let's determine the strength of our ideas based on the evidence we can provide. Meanwhile, stereotypes and flamboyant language should be left on the porch outside.

Liberty University has also stood by its decision to invite Beck to speak. An email from the office of Johnnie Moore, senior vice-president for communications and assistant to the president at Liberty University, was posted at Religion News Service.

“College is about learning,” the email read. “How can you defend what you believe if you don’t understand what others believe?  I believe our students are stronger in their faith because of our convocation speaker series and the wide diversity of views that they have been privileged to hear in person over the last few decades.”

As I wrote earlier, my response to this (and other quotes) given by Liberty University will be posted on Mormon Coffee in a two-part series beginning Monday, May 26.

As I close, I want to reiterate once more that I hold no animosity against you or Liberty University. Know that I don’t hate you, as I actually pray for your salvation. Until that day comes, though, I cannot accept nor endorse a policy that allows someone with heretical views to address my daughter and her fellow Christian students from a pulpit, especially when the backdrop reads "Training Champions for Christ." Because I believe that Mormonism is not the same as Christianity, I will continue to defend this idea as long as our nation upholds our First Amendment rights. After reading this, I hope you still don’t consider me to be a monster, just as I don't consider you to be one either. We just disagree.

Sincerely,

Eric Johnson

Mormonism Research Ministry

Glenn Beck and Liberty University

The Book of Abraham (Facsimile No.1)

 

Here above you see two pictures that can be find right before the first Chapter 1.  I have put two pictures up from two different years of Pearl of Great Price.  The 1st picture is from my 1973 copy and the 2nd is from my 2010 copy.  I have decided to write this post because of the upcoming 2013 changes to the BoM, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. 

Now the stander work says;  “A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt.—The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus. See History of the Church 2:235, 236, 348-35” (Introduction to Abraham 1).

And; “The book of Abraham is an evidence of the inspired calling of the Prophet Joseph Smith. It came forth at a time when the study of the ancient Egyptian language and culture was just beginning. The scholars of the 1800s had scarcely begun to explore the field of Egyptology, and yet, with no formal training in ancient languages and no knowledge of ancient Egypt (except his work with the Book of Mormon), Joseph Smith began his translation of the ancient manuscripts. His knowledge and ability came through the power and gift of God, together with his own determination and faith.” (Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327, 2000, p. 29).

The point I am trying to make is that if this is evidence of the inspired call of JS, then why are these explanation to the pictures above False.

At the time, Egyptian things were hot.  There was things being found all the time in Egypt and Americans had no idea what they said.  News had spread that a young man was able to translate Egyptian because of the claims he made about The Book of Mormon which was claimed to be written in Reformed Egyptian. 

JS claimed that this was a picture of Abraham being offering up as a sacrifice.

These pictures always bothered me and now they bug me even more because there are so clearly untrue but even on the LDS website, they still clam them as JS says.  Still today if you go to; http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-1?lang=eng It shows the picture found in the PGP. 

 

Why is this major lie still be installed in the Mormon’s teachings. With the help with things like the Rosetta Stone and people who have taken the time to learn the Egyptian language, we have found what this papyrus is.   

 

In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch.

When Egyptologists translated this piece of papyrus, they found that it contained absolutely nothing concerning Abraham. Instead, it turned out to be a pagan funerary text known as the "Book of Breathings," a work which actually evolved from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The Book of Breathings did not come into existence until the later stages of Egyptian history—just a few centuries before the time of Christ. Like the Book of the Dead, it was buried with those who died in ancient Egypt. It is filled with magic and pagan gods. It was obviously written by a very superstitious people, and is quite different from the religion taught in the Bible. (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/tract_fallofbookabraham.htm)

So with the clear understanding of what this actually is, will the LDS church come out and state that Joseph Smith was WRONG and lied to his followers.  If JS was wrong about this then how can we believe that he translated another Egyptian text?  It is clear with things like the Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook Plates that Joseph Smith lied about his “inspired” skills to translate. 

Its at this point that I know people will look at this and claim that I lie and am just hating the Mormon faith but I ask that you look into this yourself and look at Facsimile No. 1 yourself and see what it really say.  Ask yourself, “Should this lie be in one of my holy books?”  you decide?

END OF LINE…

Who Created Everything???

As I think about the creation of the world, I think about all the things that God has done.  From the snow that lay on the ground now to the birds that sing and the air which we breath, God created it all. 

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.  Gen 1:1 (ESV)

Like The Bible say; “God Created”.  But I look to the LDS religion to see what they believe in this area.  I remember that the LDS do clam to have the bible in there canon and even in the Articles of Faith is says; 

“We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly…” (Article Eight, Articles of Faith).

So then I look at creation and I think to myself, “Is there some we can agree on?”  Well again there is no because we do not agree on creation because of all the LDS reading I have done, the LDS do not believe in creation as told in the Bible. 

I know, I know… the LDS clam to believe the Bible and where is say, “God Created” but that is not what is taught by LDS in there own works.  Let us look at what the teachers of LDS theology says;

“God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law by which the worlds were, are, or will exist. There is an eternity before us, and it is full of matter; and if we but understand enough of the Lord and his ways, we would say that he took of this matter and organized the earth from it. How long has been organized it is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it” (Brigham Young, May 14, 1871, Journal of Discourses 14:116).

God never made?  But Genesis says He created. 

When Christians talk about God creating the Heavens and Earth, we believe He created all things.  And I mean ALL THINGS. 

“AND then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (Abraham 4:1).

Again, Christians believe that God Created not organized and formed the world. 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.  John 1:1-3 (HCSB)

The Gospel of John makes it clear that ALL THINGS were created through Jesus Christ.  Not formed and organized.

So was the earth created or just organized?  Do we believe the Bible (which the LDS clam they do) or believe man? 

What Happens When A Mormon is Shown the Truth?

 

When the truth is shown to you, one should believe and not turn away because that’s how they were raised.  To many times I talk with people in the LDS faith and this is the type of things I hear.  Even when I show them facts for their own books, they are still clouded by the lies that they have been told all their lives.

I pray that the people in this video and other Mormons look more into the history of the LDS church and the writings of the early church leaders because as soon as you do, you will see that the begging LDS was total different then what it is today.   

END OF LINE…

Wretched: The Mormon Temple has pagan symbols.

Is Mormonism Christian?

From: http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/is-mormonism-christian-/

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was birthed in 1820 by an alleged vision in which two celestial personages appeared to Joseph Smith claiming all existing churches were wrong, all their creeds were an abomination, and all their professors were corrupt. According to these personages, Smith had been chosen to restore—not reform—a church that had disappeared from the face of the earth. The Mormon doctrines that evolved from this vision compromise, confuse, or contradict the nature of God, the authority of Scripture, and the way of salvation.

First, while Christians believe that God is spirit (John 4:24), Joseph Smith taught, “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” Mormonism also holds to a plurality of gods and contends that “as man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.” Additionally, the Latter-day Saints compromise the nature of the God-man, Jesus Christ. In Christianity, Jesus is the self-existent creator of all things (Colossians 1:15–20). In Mormonism, he is the spirit brother of Lucifer who was conceived in heaven by a celestial Mother and came in flesh as the result of the Father having sex with the Virgin Mary. Doctrinal perversions exclude Mormonism from rightly being called Christian.

Furthermore, in sharp distinction to orthodox Christian theology, Mormons do not believe that the Bible is the infallible repository for redemptive revelation (2 Timothy 3:16). In their view, the Book of Mormon is “the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion.” Two further revelations complete the Mormon quad, namely Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. Doctrine and Covenants is a compilation of divine revelations that includes the doctrine of polygamy. Not until threatened by the Federal government did Mormon president Wilford Woodruff receive a revelation relegating polygamy to the afterlife. The Pearl of Great Price is no less troubling; this extra-biblical revelation was used by Mormonism to prevent African-Americans from entering the priesthood and from being exalted to godhood.

Finally, while Christians believe that they will stand before God dressed in the spotless robes of Christ’s righteousness (Romans 3:21–22; Philippians 3:9), Mormons contend that they will appear before Heavenly Father dressed in fig-leaf aprons holding good works in their hands. According to the Latter-day Saints, virtually everyone qualifies for heaven. Murderers, unrepentant whoremongers, and the world’s vilest people make it into the Telestial heaven; lukewarm Mormons, religious people, and those who accept the Mormon gospel in the spirit world typically enter the Terrestrial heaven; and temple Mormons make it to the Celestial heaven. Only those who are sealed in secret temple rituals, however, will make it to the third level of the Celestial kingdom and become gods of their own planets.

These and many other doctrinal perversions exclude Mormonism from rightly being called Christian.

For further study, see Richard Abanes, One Nation Under Gods (New York: Four Walls Eight Windows, 2003); and James R. White, Is the Mormon My Brother? (Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1997).

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me and understand
that I am he. Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.”

My LDS Library

here is my LDS Library

Is D&C 132 Still Around?

News headline reads:

'Sister Wives' Lawsuit: Federal Judge Rules TV Family Can Question Bigamy Statute. 

SALT LAKE CITY -- A federal judge has ruled there's sufficient evidence to allow a polygamous family made famous by a reality TV show to pursue a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of Utah's bigamy law.

U.S. District Judge Clark Waddoups on Friday dismissed Utah's governor and attorney general from the case, but allowed the suit to proceed against Utah County Attorney Jeffrey Buhman, the Deseret News and Salt Lake Tribune report.

Buhman threatened to prosecute Kody Brown and his four wives – Meri, Janelle, Christine and Robyn – after the TLC show "Sister Wives" debuted in September 2010, but his office has not filed charges.

__________________________________________________________

So in understanding the history of polygamy in the history of the LDS church made me ask the question: if they do say its ok (polygamy), will D&C 132 come back to the church? 

I was told by a known Mormons apologists that D&C 132 has nothing to do with polygamy. But in my collection of Mormon books and manuals,  I have a copy of  the 1981 D&C student manual put out from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which I can only guess was used by BYU students. 

In the history background of D&C 132 it says that the revelation has 2 major sections: 1st part deals with Celestial marriage(3-33) and the 2nd and remaining verses deals with "plural marriage" which was abandoned by the church in 1890.

Remember this is from the official student manual from the church.

Again I was asked, “where in 132 does it talk about plural marriage?

The 3 parts that talk about polygamy are:

“Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—” (Doctrine and Covenants 132:1).

“David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me. David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord” (Doctrine and Covenants 132:38-39).

“Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God” (Doctrine and Covenants 132:51-52).

“And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else” (Doctrine and Covenants 132:61).

One of the verses I highlighted was D&C 132:38-39 saying; 

I guess one would have to understand what Joseph was saying when he wrote, UNTIL THIS TIME. Was he talking about the time of David or the time he lived. But we know from the Joseph Smith papers that they say he had up to 30 wives.

“During his lifetime, he [Joseph Smith] was married to approximately thirty women. Although conjugal relations were apparently involved, he spent little time with these women, the need for se¬crecy and the demands on his time keeping them apart” (The Joseph Smith Papers 1:xxx-xxxi. Brackets mine).

Then we would also have to look at, if 132 was just talking about celestial marriage (not dealing with plural marriage), why would Hyrum say, “If you will write the revelation on Celestial marriage, I will take it and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her its truth, and you will hereafter have peace” (History of the Church, 5:xxxii)

Why would they have to convince Emma about being with her husband for all eternity? Or where they convincing her to let Joseph have more then one wife?

The point that I would like to make is that living in Utah I know where there are polygamous family's lives and no on cares, even the mainstream LDS.  The History of the church is clear but why do Mormons today try to cover it up or say it never happened. 

One thing that evangelicals Christians and the rest of the world has a issue with is that the LDS church will not be upfront and clear on there history or beliefs. The cop out answer is, “Go to LDS.ORG and read about it.”  If the LDS church still believe in polygamy in some way or another or looks for its return, please be upfront about it and try not to cover it up with lies.

You can’t change history

END OF LINE…

Is There Any Official Mormon Church Doctrine?

From evidenceministries.org

What is Doctrine?

Over the past few week I have found issues on websites and forums about what is “official Doctrine”.  Now in the Christian churches like the one I am in we hold the bible and the teachings of Jesus and truth to be Doctrine.

Christian truth and teaching passed on from generation to generation as “the faith that was delivered to the saints” (Jude 3 HCSB).

Specifically, doctrine refers to Christian teaching and most specifically to Christian teaching about God, the gospel, and the comprehensive pattern of Christian truth. The word itself means “teaching” and generally refers to the accepted body of beliefs held by the Christian church universally and to those beliefs specific to individual denominations and congregations in particular.

The Christian church cannot avoid teaching and thus must formulate a framework for understanding and teaching the basic rudiments and principles of the faith and for developing those basic doctrines into more comprehensive and thorough understandings. Without such a framework, the church has no coherent system of beliefs and no means of discriminating between true and false beliefs. —Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary

But in understanding the LDS church, they are lead by a living prophet and at times receives Inspired words from God to become scripture. 

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts four books as scripture: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These books are called the standard works of the Church. The inspired words of our living prophets are also accepted as scripture” (Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 45).

“In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazines, and instructions to local priesthood leaders” (Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 48. Italics in original).

We see clearly that in the church manual “Gospel Principles” that the inspired words of the prophet is the word of God or scripture.  Now do LDS member claim this?  Over the past few weeks I have would have to say NO.

The issue came about when a non-LDS asked about Adam-God and was hammered with commits saying that it’s not official LDS Doctrine so we could not talk about it. But did not Brigham Young preach Adam-God? Was it not inspired?

“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually” (Brigham Young, January 2, 1870, Journal of Discourses 13:95).

The question then was brought up about how things become doctrine and I was told that when the prophet has something he takes to the 12 and so one and it had to be voted on by the church.  But my question would have to be, “Who would go against the prophet” and “If the church votes ageist the prophet and his inspired words, does that make him a false prophet?” 

“Just as the Lord’s prophet is the only person on the earth who holds all of the keys of the priesthood (see D&C 132:7), he also is the only one who is empowered to receive revelation for the whole Church. Neither his counselors nor members of the Quorum of the Twelve nor any person in any position in the Church may declare official doctrine, change policies, or speak as the Lord’s representative for the entire Church, without the prophet’s authorization” (Teachings of the Living Prophets, 1982, p. 13).

It always seems to come back to one man, the living prophet.  When I got my copy of “The Teachings of Thomas S. Monson” people told me I was holding the word of God. But is it doctrine?

That always seems to be the question that non-LDS people have for the LDS church, what do you believe?  Who do you listen to? If the living prophet says Jump will you say how high? 

My question is, What is LDS doctrine?

END OF LINE…

Did Joseph Smith teach that God was once a man as we are now?

I am the Lord, and there is no other; there is no God but Me. Isaiah 45:5 (HCSB)

27 You will know that I am present in Israel and that I am the Lord your God, and there is no other. Joel 2:27 (HCSB)

Question of the Day

If the Book of Mormon was first penned between 600BC and AD 421, as claimed, how could it contain such extensive quotations from the AD 1611 KJV (using archaic King James English), which was not written until more than 1000 years later?

Joseph Smith Joins Methodist Church in 1828

Here we have video from Heart of the Matter that states that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church 8 years after God told him not to join any Church because there creeds where abomination. 

Now some LDS just say that he was not a full member but just checking it out. Some say it was a class that someone took him to but over all, Joseph Smith had his name placed in a book to join the church.  again, 8 years after God told him not to. 

Here are the quotes:

He presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members. (The Amboy Journal, Amboy, Illinois, April 30, 1879, p.1)

I, with Joshua McKune, a local preacher at that time, I think in June, 1828, heard on Saturday, that Joe Smith had joined the church on Wednesday afternoon, (as it was customary in those days to have circuit preaching at my father's house on week-day). We thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it. So on Sunday we went to father's, the place of meeting that day, and got there in season to see Smith and talked with him some time in father's shop before the meeting. Told him that his occupation, habits, and moral character were at variance with the discipline, that his name would be a disgrace to the church, that there should have been recantation, confession and at least promised reformation-. That he could that day publicly ask that his name be stricken from the class book, or stand an investigation. He chose the former, and did that very day make the request that his name be taken off the class book. (The Amboy Journal, June 11, 1879, p.1).

Now looking a the FAIR website, they almost just total look over these facts.  according to the FAIR website they say;

Did Joseph join other churches contrary to commandment in vision?—Critics charge that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches between 1820 and 1830—despite the claim made in his 1838 history that he was forbidden by Deity (during the 1820 First Vision experience) from joining any denomination.

also saying;

No critic who has charged Joseph Smith with joining a church between 1820 and 1830 has ever produced any authentic denominational membership record that would substantiate such a claim. Eyewitness reminiscences and contemporary records provide strong evidence that this claim is not valid and, therefore, does not reflect historical reality.

1st Like so many of the early Methodist records, the early class books of the Harmony (now Lanesboro) Church are lost, so we will never know for certain whether Joseph Smith remained a member for only three days or six months. However, there was never any dispute that he had become a member, and by this one act he undercut the story he later put forth that God in a special vision had instructed him specifically not to join the Methodist Church.       (taken from http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm)

2nd It is easy for people in the Mormon faith to believe in the Book of Mormon with no Authentic Record before 1820 but they believe in it. 

3rd This event is also mentioned in Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda K. Newell and Valeen T. Avery, University of Illinois Press, 1994, p.25.

Emma's uncle, Nathaniel Lewis, preached as a lay minister of the local Methodist Episcopal church. His congregation met in the homes of the members for Sunday services. On Wednesdays a regular circuit preacher visited Harmony. In the spring or summer of 1828 Joseph asked the circuit rider if his name could be included on the class roll of the church. Joseph "presented himself in a very serious and humble manner," and the minister obliged him.

When Emma's cousin, Joseph Lewis, discovered Joseph's name on the roll, he "thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer" as a member. He took the matter up with a friend, and the following Sunday, when Joseph and Emma arrived for church, the two men steered Joseph aside and into the family shop. "They told him plainly that such character as he . . . could not be a member of the church unless he broke off his sins by repentance, made public confession, renounced his fraudulent and hypocritical practices, and gave some evidence that he intended to reform and conduct himself somewhat nearer like a christian than he had done. They gave him his choice to go before the class, and publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class book, or stand a disciplinary investigation." Joseph refused to comply with the humiliating demands and withdrew from the class. His name, however, stayed on the roll for about six more months, either from oversight or because Emma's brother-in-law, Michael Morse, who taught the class, did not know of the confrontation. When Joseph did not seek full membership, Morse finally dropped his name.²"

Page 314, footnote 2:
Amboy Journal, 11 June and 30 April 1879. In 1879 Joseph and Hiel Lewis, sons of Uncle Nathaniel Lewis, debated with a Mormon named Edwin Cadwell over events in Harmony while Emma and Joseph lived there. The Amboy Journal reproduced their letters.

Taken from www.utlm.org  http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm

It is clear that Joseph Smith, being burned by the Methodist Church, tried to erased this from his history because of earlier claims and then the idea of the first vision that the LDS church being the One and Only true church. 

Again, here is the proof. Take it or leave it but it is there.

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The Fall was Good?

Last night as I was looking through my 1979 copy of Gospel Principles, I find myself reading about Adam and Eve and the fall.  Now I have looked into this before and have heard of that the LDS church teaches that the fall was a good thing but I had never actually took the time to study it. The main reason is that I never could believe that a group that claims they worship God could say that sin was a good thing.  But The teachings of the Mormon church does say that the fall of Adam and Eve, sin, was a good thing. 

This is what it says in Gospel Principles;

“Some people believe that Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all mankind” (Gospel Principles, 1979, p. 31). 

Now this one quote was not has hard to read then some of the quotes from Mormons teaching that parse sin. 

  “ADAM AND EVE REJOICED IN THE FALL. Before partaking of the fruit Adam could have lived forever; therefore, his status was one of immortality. When he ate, he became subject to death, and therefore he became mortal. This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do! I am sure that neither Adam nor Eve looked upon it as a sin, when they learned the consequences, and this is discovered in their words after they learned the consequences” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:115. See also The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327, p. 13).

“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise” (Russell M. Nelson, “Constancy amid Change,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, p. 34).

“Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we should have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve, why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to His government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and He had designed that they should.” (Brigham Young, June 10-13, 1864, Journal of Discourses 10:312).

Brigham Young stated that God designed that they would sin.  This me wonder why God would ever tell not to eat of the tree in the first place. 

Christian understand that sin is wrong and has always been wrong.  even the Mormons teach that  Satan and his followers sinned in Heaven and turned on God and was punished but they look at Adams sin and say it was a good thing?  this does not make any since at all? 

The Bible makes it clear that sin is wrong.  Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of there sins and people have died because they have sin ageist God.  If sin was apart of God’s plan then why would we need to be forgiven of sin. 

Even the book of Mormon makes it clear that sin is wrong;

  “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37).

Sin can’t save or be part of God’s plan.  The whole idea of God is that he is perfect and that sin is us going ageist God.  He would not set us for us to sin to move is plans along. 

If we believe that Adam’s sin was good and needed to be done, that would  take away for the great and powerful will of God. We have to understand that God does not need us to move His plan and He does not need us to sin to let His plan happen.  God is God and we are just man.  He is our creator and we can not change His plan.

God, Your Will Be Done!!!  Not mine.

Sin is not good any time or any reason. Jesus went to the cross because of sin and died because of the sin that we commit. 

8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.       1 John 3:8-10 (HCSB)

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Who’s Closer?

When it comes to understanding where Biblical Christian and Mormons stand with each other, The Mormon tries to believe that we are one in the same.  I any Bible believing that has study the matter sees that the Mormon and Biblical Christian are no where close to being the same. 

In my blog post, My Top 10 questions I asked the question and also showing a chat showing to 2 different ideas of God in both the Mormon faith and the Christian faith.

As I show that it is clear the we believe in two different God’s, Mormons who answered the question still told me that we had the same God.  HOW CAN THIS BE? 

One day the Bishop’s wife stop by my house to talk and get to know me.  She asked me if I believe that they where not Christians. As I told her, I wish I could but the Mormons faith does not believe in the God of the Bible.  She then asked me, “Is it because we don’t believe in the Trinity”.  YES YES YSE, that’s a main reason.

To try to make it more clear Biblical Christians believe in the Trinity, Mormons don’t. Biblical Christians believe that there is only one God and will be only one God, Mormons don’t. Biblical Christians believe the Bible is the only Holy Book from God, Mormons don’t. And I could go on and on about how we are different but there are still Mormons who believe we are the same.

But let me ask my Mormons friends read this a questions, “If you believe that we are the same, are members of the FLDS Mormons?”

As I have asked this questions to Mormons I get the answer, NO THEY ARE NOT. but why?  I mean they believe in Joseph Smith as Prophet. They believe in the Book of Mormons. they believe in the temple. they believe in almost all the same teachings as the main stream LDS church.  But the LDS church has casted  them out.   but again I want to point out, The FLDS is closer in belief with Mormons than the LDS church is with Biblical Christianity.  

Think about it. 

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No 1820 Revival

From www.mrm.org written by: Wesley Walters http://www.mrm.org/first-vision

First, his neighborhood in 1820 experienced no revival such as he described, in which "great multitudes" joined the Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian churches. The Presbyterian records for the Palmyra Presbyterian Church show that it experienced no revival in 1820. (See Geneva Presbytery "Records," Presbyterian Historical Society.) The local Baptist church gained only six on profession of faith the entire year ("Records for the First Baptist Church in Palmyra," American Baptist Historical Society) while the Methodists actually lost members that year as well as the preceding and following years (Minutes of the Annual Conference).

Joseph Smith claimed that his mother, sister and two brothers were led to join the local Presbyterian Church as a result of that 1820 revival. However, four years before he made this claim, his own church paper had stated that the revival in which his family had been led to join the Presbyterian Church took place in 1823 (Messenger & Advocate I, pp. 42, 78). In fact, that account says it was the same 1823 revival that led him to go to his bedroom (not to a sacred grove) and pray "if a Supreme being did exist" and to know that "he was accepted of him." An angel (not a deity) is then reported to have appeared and told him of his forgiveness and of the gold plates.

Joseph's mother, likewise, knew nothing of an 1820 vision. In her unpublished account, she traces the origin of Mormonism to a bedroom visit by an angel. Joseph at the time had been "pondering which of the churches were the true one." The angel told him "there is not a true church on Earth. No not one" (First draft of "Lucy Smith's History," LDS Church Archives).

Furthermore, she tells us that the revival which led her joining the church took place following the death of her son, Alvin. Alvin died Nov. 19, 1823, and following that painful loss she reports that, "about this time there was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject and we among the rest, flocked to the meeting house to see if there was a word of comfort for us that might relieve our over-charged feelings" (p. 55-56).

She adds that although her husband would only attend the first meetings, he had no objection to her or the children "going or becoming church members." There is plenty of additional evidence that the revival Lucy Smith refers to did occur during the winter of 1824-25. It was reported in at least a dozen newspapers and religious periodicals. The church records show outstanding increases due to the reception of new converts. The Baptist church received 94, the Presbyterian 99, while the Methodist work grew by 208. No such revival bringing in "great multitudes" occurred in 1820.

It is clear that the revival Joseph Smith, Jr. described did not occur in 1820, but in 1824. Joseph Smith arbitrarily moved that revival back four years to 1820 and made it fit a First Vision story that neither his mother nor other close associates had heard of in those early days. The historical facts completely discredit Joseph Smith's First Vision story. (For further details, see "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought" Spring 1969, pp. 59-100.)

http://www.archive.org/download/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.11.22.No1820Revival.mp3

He Said What!?!?

The Bible tells us time and time again not to boast about ourselves and things that we have done but only to boast in the LORD. 

3 Do not boast so proudly, or let arrogant ⌊words⌋ come out of your mouth, for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and actions are weighed by Him.  1 Sam 2:3 (HCSB)

23 This is what the Lord says:
The wise man must not boast in his wisdom; the strong man must not boast in his strength; the wealthy man must not boast in his wealth. 24 But the one who boasts should boast in this, that he understands and knows Me — that I am the Lord, showing faithful love, justice, and righteousness on the earth, for I delight in these things. ⌊This is⌋ the Lord’s declaration. Jer 9:23-24 (HCSB)

This is something that is strongly understood in the Christian faith and if and when pastor and others have boasted about things they have done, they have been or should be called on them. 

But as I write this I think of a quote from Joseph Smith that not only did he boast but claimed he did better then Jesus…

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I” (Joseph Smith, May 26, 1844, History of the Church 6:408-409).

HE SAID WHAT!?!?

Now if a pastor/leader in any Christian church said something like this, they would be called a heretic.  To say that one has done more to keep the church together then Christ like Joseph Smith did is unthinkable. 

I mean Jesus is God and saying that one has done anything better then God… well I just can put it into words. 

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The Book of Mormon is Correct?

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:461. See also Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194).

Joseph Smith made this bold claim about The Book of Mormon.  To be fair, if the Book of Mormon is true the way that Joseph Smith translated this book is only with the absolute power of God. 

The way that Joseph Smith translated the book is told in church history is by the method told below:

“The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote: ‘I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man’” (Russell M. Nelson, “A Treasured Testament,” Ensign, July 1993, p. 61. Citing David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 12).

So looking over this, it is easy to say that the book of Mormon has to be from God. I mean if God showed easy word/letter to Joseph Smith, then How can it be wrong.

BUT WAIT…

If God helped Joseph translate the Book of Mormon,  then why is there more then 4000 changes to the Book of Mormon?  One would think that God would have got it right the first time.

These changes are not just to fix the grammar issues that was in the Book of Mormon (I guess God can’t spell), But was to also change theology.

One change that we can see is in 1Nephi 11:21 which now says; 21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

But the 1830 version says;  11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

So the new version makes the Lamb of God (Jesus) into the son of god, meaning the first begotten, spirit brother.

The 1830 version says that the Lamb of God (Jesus) is God, God in the flesh, the creator, The Word 100% God 100% man. 

So there seems to be a issue with The Book of Mormon in the changing of scripture. If the power of God really did gave Joseph Smith ever letter and every word then why would it need to be changed so much?  

Also it is important to point out that the Book of Mormon uses 27000 words directly from the King James Bible (1611).  If the Book of Mormon was first pinned between 600BC and 421AD how can it quote the King James Bible that was Written until 1000 years later? If the Book of Mormon was true and only came about when Joseph Smith found the golden plates, then why was the book “view of the Hebrews” so parallel to each other?

When you look at the evidence shown in how The Book of Mormon came to be, you will find that it was made by man and not given from God.  If the Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God then there would not be over 4000 changes.  If the Book of Mormon was pinned between 600bc and 421ad it would not quote the King James Bible word for word. If the Book of Mormon it would not sound like another book that came out 7 years before the Book of Mormon.

Do the math…

King James Bible + View of the Hebrews +Joseph Smith  = Book of Mormon

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