Donall and Conall Meet the Mormon Missionaries

What does it mean to be a Christian? A Mormon apostle explains.

Posted on May 30, 2013 by Sharon Lindbloom from http://blog.mrm.org/2013/05/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-christian-a-mormon-apostle-explains/

In October 2012 Mormon Apostle Robert D. Hales spoke at the Mormon Church’s General Conference regarding what it means to be a Christian. He defined a Christian like this:

“A Christian has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the literal Son of God, sent by His Father to suffer for our sins in the supreme act of love we know as theAtonement.

“A Christian believes that through the grace of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, we can repent, forgive others, keep the commandments, and inherit eternal life.

“The word Christian denotes taking upon us the name of Christ. We do this by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those holding His priesthood authority.

“A Christian knows that throughout the ages, God’s prophets have always testified of Jesus Christ. This same Jesus, accompanied by Heavenly Father, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the year 1820 and restored the gospel and the organization of His original Church.

“Through the scriptures and the witness of Joseph Smith, we know that God, ourHeavenly Father, has a glorified and perfected body of flesh and bone. Jesus Christ is His Only Begotten Son in the flesh. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit whose work is to testify of the Father and the Son. The Godhead is three separate and distinct beings, unified in purpose.

“With these doctrines as the foundation of our faith, can there be any doubt or disputation that we, as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are Christian?” (Ensign, “Being a More Christian Christian,” November 2012, 90)

Indeed, if Mr. Hales’ definition of a Christian is used, not only are Mormons Christians, they are the onlyChristians. As Bill McKeever noted in the January-February 2013 issue of Mormonism Researched,summarized here,

• Mormonism teaches that Jesus is the literal offspring of Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother (while historic Christianity, though recognizing Jesus as the Son of God, has never believed Jesus is “literally” God’s Son);
• The Mormon Church claims to be the only church that holds God’s priesthood authority;
• Only Mormons believe Joseph Smith was visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ;
• Mormon doctrine dictates that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone (while historic Christianity worships a God of spirit);
• Mormonism uniquely expands the biblical revelation of Christ as God’s only begotten Son by adding the qualifier “in the flesh,” something historic Christianity has never affirmed;
• Mormonism recognizes three Gods in the Godhead while orthodox Christianity has always been committed to the doctrine of only One True God (in Trinity).

Therefore, on the face of it, according to Mr. Hales definition only Mormons are Christians. Anyone who believes in the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, or chooses baptism in a different church, or dismisses Joseph Smith’s First Vision (etc.) is not a Christian.

Some have noted that this exclusionary list, presented by a Mormon Apostle, in an official Church setting, is a bit hypocritical in light of the usual insistence of Mormons and the Mormon Church alike that “Christian” must be verybroadly defined: “Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world is a Christian, regardless of differences in theology.”

Perhaps the Mormon Church has recognized that Mr. Hales’ definition of a Christian tends to “dismiss or diminish the validity of other people’s religious experiences,” something the Church, on its website,claims it does not do. In the March 2013 issue of the Ensign, readers are encouraged to “review the October 2012 general conference,” specifically noting Mr. Hales’ address discussing, “What does it mean to be a Christian?” An edited quote from Mr. Hales’ talk is provided for Ensign readers:

1. A Christian has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. …
2. A Christian believes that through the grace of God … we can repent, forgive others, keep the commandments, and inherit eternal life.
3. The word Christian denotes taking upon us the name of Christ. We do this by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
4. A Christian knows that … God’s prophets have always testified of Jesus Christ. (Ensign, “October Conference Notebook,” March 2013, 9. Ellipses retained from the source cited.)

This edited list has lost every Mormon distinctive that is found in Mr. Hales’ original: No mention of Jesus being the “literal” Son of God; no mention of priesthood authority; no mention of Joseph Smith’s First Vision; no mention of a Father God of flesh and bone; no mention of Jesus being the only begotten “in the flesh”; no mention of the Godhead being comprised of three Gods.

The Mormon Church seems happy to recognize non-Mormons as Christian per the broader, more inclusive definition found online and in the March Ensign; but to be a Christian Christian – well, that appears to be another story altogether.

No 1820 Revival

From www.mrm.org written by: Wesley Walters http://www.mrm.org/first-vision

First, his neighborhood in 1820 experienced no revival such as he described, in which "great multitudes" joined the Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian churches. The Presbyterian records for the Palmyra Presbyterian Church show that it experienced no revival in 1820. (See Geneva Presbytery "Records," Presbyterian Historical Society.) The local Baptist church gained only six on profession of faith the entire year ("Records for the First Baptist Church in Palmyra," American Baptist Historical Society) while the Methodists actually lost members that year as well as the preceding and following years (Minutes of the Annual Conference).

Joseph Smith claimed that his mother, sister and two brothers were led to join the local Presbyterian Church as a result of that 1820 revival. However, four years before he made this claim, his own church paper had stated that the revival in which his family had been led to join the Presbyterian Church took place in 1823 (Messenger & Advocate I, pp. 42, 78). In fact, that account says it was the same 1823 revival that led him to go to his bedroom (not to a sacred grove) and pray "if a Supreme being did exist" and to know that "he was accepted of him." An angel (not a deity) is then reported to have appeared and told him of his forgiveness and of the gold plates.

Joseph's mother, likewise, knew nothing of an 1820 vision. In her unpublished account, she traces the origin of Mormonism to a bedroom visit by an angel. Joseph at the time had been "pondering which of the churches were the true one." The angel told him "there is not a true church on Earth. No not one" (First draft of "Lucy Smith's History," LDS Church Archives).

Furthermore, she tells us that the revival which led her joining the church took place following the death of her son, Alvin. Alvin died Nov. 19, 1823, and following that painful loss she reports that, "about this time there was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject and we among the rest, flocked to the meeting house to see if there was a word of comfort for us that might relieve our over-charged feelings" (p. 55-56).

She adds that although her husband would only attend the first meetings, he had no objection to her or the children "going or becoming church members." There is plenty of additional evidence that the revival Lucy Smith refers to did occur during the winter of 1824-25. It was reported in at least a dozen newspapers and religious periodicals. The church records show outstanding increases due to the reception of new converts. The Baptist church received 94, the Presbyterian 99, while the Methodist work grew by 208. No such revival bringing in "great multitudes" occurred in 1820.

It is clear that the revival Joseph Smith, Jr. described did not occur in 1820, but in 1824. Joseph Smith arbitrarily moved that revival back four years to 1820 and made it fit a First Vision story that neither his mother nor other close associates had heard of in those early days. The historical facts completely discredit Joseph Smith's First Vision story. (For further details, see "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought" Spring 1969, pp. 59-100.)

http://www.archive.org/download/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.11.22.No1820Revival.mp3

Still waiting! 4th week in a row call out for any General Authority-Scott Gordon

Thanks Contend4theFaith1

3rd week in a row invitation and still waiting to hear from Scott Gordon or any General Authority.

Invitation still open to appear on the show.

Is Mormonism Christian?

From Dr. James White

How was Jesus Conceived?

Over the past week and a half, there has been a lot of talk between Mormons and Christians about how Jesus was conceive. This talk has been highlighted on the bible answer man and has been talked about here in Utah because of those shows.

On the bible answer man, Hank Hanegraaff used a quote from Bruce R. McConkie (Shown Below) to show that Mormon belief say that God came down to earth in a body of flesh and blood and was with Mary to Conceive.

“Christ was Begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547).

Now a lot of Mormons called in and wrote Email stating that we Christians are wrong and don’t know what we are talking about, Which I hear a lot from Mormons, but it is hard to say that when people like Hank Hanegraaff, Bill McKeever, Sandra Tanner, Shawn McCraney, and Myself use the words of Mormon Leaders to understand what the LDS teaches. 

On the issue at hand, How was Jesus conceive?  I give you Luke 1:26-35

26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And ⌊the angel⌋ came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was deeply troubled by this statement, wondering what kind of greeting this could be. 30 Then the angel told her:

Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Now listen: You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.

34 Mary asked the angel, “How can this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?” 35 The angel replied to her:

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy One to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:26-35 (HCSB)

Now as I have talked to members of the LDS, they clam that this is what they believe but this is not what was said by Mormon leaders. let us look at the teachings of Mormon leaders and if a Mormon is reading this then remember that this is what you most believe to be a good Mormon and if that words come from the president then it is scripture, Believed to be the word of God to the LDS.

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers” (Brigham Young, July 8, 1860, Journal of Discourses 8:115). 

“CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF HOLY GHOST… Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:18. Italics in original.

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost” (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7. See also the Church News, December 18, 2004, p. 16).Ellipses mine).

“We are all spirit sons and daughters of God; but Jesus Christ was and is The Son of God in a superlative and distinctive sense, God the Eternal Father being His Father both in spirit and in flesh” (James E. Talmage, Conference Reports, April 1915, p. 123).

“Begotten means begotten; it means Christ’s mortal body was procreated by an Eternal Sire; it means God is the Father of Christ, ‘after the manner of the flesh.’ (1 Ne. 11:18.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:141).

“The official doctrine of the Church is that Jesus is the literal offspring of God. He’s got 46 chromosomes; 23 came from Mary, 23 came from God the eternal Father” (BYU Professor Stephen E. Robinson, The Mormon Puzzle, produced by the Southern Baptist Convention, 1997).

“The Father had a Son, a natural Son, his own literal Seed, the Offspring of his body” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, pg.355).

So for what the words that the LDS clam, God literally came and was with Mary and had a son, that was the LDS Jesus. 

This is not what the Bible teaches and is not what Christians believe.  This is one reason that Christians say that Mormons have a “Different Jesus”.  Again like I have said, and others have said, We do not believe in the same Jesus or the same God.  But my Heart goes out to people of the Mormon faith. I pray that they see the light and the truth and come to know the real Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible. 

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A Challenge for Mormons

For the members of the LDS Church that clam I know nothing of there faith, I want to set up a Challenge.  Last night I ordered a copy of “Teachings of Thomas S. Monson” and I plan to read a chapter and then write a review on each Chapter based on what the bible says and what past LSD prophets have said. 

But as I read this book and take notes and write on them I ask for any Mormon to read a book from a Christian writer and see what we have to say.  (Below is a list of books you should pick from)

• The Mormon Mirage by Latayne C. Scott
• Mormonism Unmasked by R. Philip Roberts
• 3:16 The Number of Hope by Max Lucado
• Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe by Mark Driscoll
• Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
• Vintage Jesus by Mark Driscoll
• The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke And John) and Romans in the ether the NIV or The Holman Christian Stander Bible

All these books you can find on Amazon. Will you take this Challenge, I am

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