What Mormons Believe About: God, man, Jesus, salvation, Bible/authority, and the afterlife

What Mormons Believe About:

God, man, Jesus, salvation, Bible/authority, and the afterlife

By Rev. Wil R. Hoffmann

God: All members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS or Mormon Church) will tell you they believe in God and Jesus and even point out that Jesus is in the name of their church. However, just because they say they believe and worship God and Jesus, they do not believe in the Trinity as the Bible defines it, and therefore do not believe in the same God as we do. So who is God, also known as Heavenly father or Elohim, in the teachings of the LDS church?

1. God is an exalted man. Joseph Smith taught that, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!”1

This belief comes from the idea that Heavenly Father was once a man on another planet that followed the teachings of the LDS Church on his planet. After dying and going to the 3rd level of Heaven, he was given a planet to rein over by his god.

2. God is not Spirit but is a man of flesh and bone. Joseph Smith said, “That which is without body or parts is nothing. There is no God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones.”2

3. Heavenly Father is the literal father of Jesus. President Joseph F. Smith (1838-1918) taught: “God the Eternal Father…is the literal parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race….We are God’s children.”3

This teaching is that god came down in the flesh and knew Mary to conceive Jesus.

Jesus: According to Mormon doctrine, both God and Jesus came to Joseph Smith to tell him that all denominations were false. This again points to the belief that God and Jesus are two different people. Although Jesus is in the name of the LDS church, their doctrine on Jesus is not found in the bible.

1. Jesus is not God but a god. Within the LDS church, Jesus was a man; however he became a god by his father bestowing it on him even before he came to earth. Jesus was the first-born child of Heavenly Father and one of his wives. When Heavenly Father decided to pick a savior for the people of earth, he had to choose between his first-born Jesus and his second-born Satan. Both brought their case for why they should be savior, and Heavenly Father picked Jesus.

“Christ attained Godhood while yet in pre-existence, he too stood as a God to the other spirits, but this relationship was not the same one of personal parenthood that prevailed between the Father and his offspring.”4

Because of this, Satan rebelled and left Heaven, and Jesus was sent to earth to be savior of the people.

2. Jesus needed to be saved by God. “Even Christ himself was not perfect at first; he received not a fulness [sic] at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness [sic]”5

3. Jesus is our Spirit brother and the brother of Satan. “The oldest child in our heavenly family was Jesus Christ. He is our oldest brother.”6

The teaching of the LDS Church is that all mankind are spirit children of Heavenly Father and his wives. Jesus was the first-born spirit child and Satan was the second-born spirit child. Through this understanding everyone is a spirit child of god and one of his wives. Therefore we are all spirit brother and sisters.

Man: Men and women are the spirit children of Heavenly Father and his wives. Man was once with God in heaven and then was sent to earth. If man follows the teachings of the LDS Church, then when he passes away he will be able to return to his heavenly father and mother.

1. Men can become gods. The understanding behind this is that man is the same species as God. Because of this, if men keep to the teachings of the LDS Church and meet the requirements established by the LDS Church, then they can be given their own planet by their Heavenly Father. “God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement.”7

Also, a point to note is that only men can reach godhood. Women are subject to the actions of their husbands, even to the point of their salvation.

2. Mankind was with God before they were on earth. “We lived before we came here and our birth into this world was the reward of having kept our first estate.”8 Within the LDS Church, it is commonly known that before we came to earth, we were with God in heaven. We just cannot remember that time. This is what is known as the preexistence and is historically understood that Heavenly Father conceived the people of the world with one of his many wives in heaven.

After some time in Heaven, we are picked to come to earth and forget our preexistence. Then man works his way back to God through the teachings of the LDS Church.

Bible/authority: When it comes to understand the Scriptures and authority of the LDS Church, one has to understand that the Mormon faith is, in a sense, is a living religion. Scripture and authority are always changing and can change at any time. Within the LDS Church there are four books of scripture (Holy Bible KJV, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price). With these books of scripture, the LDS Church also has a Living Prophet (Thomas S. Monson) that dictates their beliefs.

1. Members of the LDS church do use the King James Bible. To many members of the LDS Church, the Holy Bible in the King James Version is their first book of scripture. However, they believe “the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.”9

It was taught by Joseph Smith that he believed the Bible was correct when it was written by the original authors. But over time and bad translators, the Bible lost its true meaning and was corrupt and has led many astray.

So, today’s members of the LDS Church read the bible but understand it as told to them by the leadership of the Mormon Church.

2. Along with the King James Bible, the LDS Church has other scriptures. Most people know about the Book of Mormon and that it is known as “another testament of Jesus Christ.”“The Book of Mormon is a sacred record of some of the people who lived on the American continents between about 2000 B.C. and A.D. 400. It contains the fulness [sic] of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon tells of the visit Jesus Christ made to the people in the Americas soon after His Resurrection.”10

This is one of the most recognized items that Mormon missionaries will have and want to give you when they come to your door. However, the King James Bible and The Book of Mormon are only two of the four books of scriptures.

The other two books are Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

Doctrine and Covenants contains “revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith. It also includes a few revelations given to other latter-day prophets. This book of scripture is unique because it is not a translation of ancient documents. It is a collection of revelations given by the Lord to His chosen prophets in the latter days.”11

The revelations given to the prophets are something that is still happening today. At any time the Prophet/ President of the LDS Church, Thomas Monson, can have a “revelation” that would be voted on at the LDS General Conference and then added to Doctrine and Covenants. (The last addition to Doctrine and Covenants took place on June 8, 1978, dealing with the subject of allowing all worthy males to hold the priesthood. This came because it was found out that there were no African American priesthood holders. This is because at one time it was believed that people with dark skin where not worthy to hold high positions in the church.)

The Pearl of Great Price contains the book of Moses, the book of Abraham, The Articles of Faith and some inspired writings of Joseph Smith. The inspired writings of Joseph Smith are his interpretation of the Gospel of Matthew and the History of Joseph Smith.

3. The most important authority of the LDS is the President. The Prophet, Seer, and Revelator are all names to describe the President and leader or the LDS Church. From the first Prophet Joseph Smith to the sixteenth and current Prophet Thomas S. Monson, there is no greater authority in the Mormon Church.

The trust of the leadership of the LDS Church is strong among the members. They truly believe that he is God’s called servant, and whatever is said by the Prophet through his teaching can be counted as the Word of God.

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts four books as scripture: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These books are called the standard works of the Church. The inspired words of our living prophets are also accepted as scripture.”12

Salvation: Salvation in the LDS church is worked based. It focuses on the work that people do for their own spiritual growth, the LDS Church, and helping others in need. For salvation in a person’s life within the LDS church, three things must be involved: 1. Works of the person; 2. Jesus; and 3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

1. You’re saved by grace but you also need work. In the Book of Mormon it teaches that your works are a huge part of your salvation. 2 Nephi 25:23 says, “For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” This points to the idea that the one doing most of the work is man and Jesus makes up the rest.

This belief points clearly that man has to keep the commands of God and the LDS Church to be saved. Jesus is not enough and this point is taught many times through the LDS Church.

“Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone, ‘for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do.’”13

2. You have to be a member of the LDS Church to be saved. When Joseph Smith started this new religion in the 1800’s, he preached that all other churches are wrong and have become apostate. Joseph Smith taught that he restored the one true church that had been lost since the passing of the apostles.

“If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”14

This is a key reason why LDS missionaries, even if you tell them you go to church, will still evangelize to you at your door. This is because they believe that salvation is not found outside the LDS Church.

3. Salvation can be a family thing. One of the strongest aspects of the LDS Church and one of the main reasons people convert to the Mormon faith is because of their dedication to family. Family forever is the teaching that a family, through the father, can be sealed in an LDS temple and remain together forever. Boiled down, the salvation of the family relies on the father of the family.

This position even states that if a child of a sealed family at some point stops going to church and even states he is no longer a Mormon, the sealing of the family still allows that child/ person to be with his family in Heaven.

Afterlife: When you talk to Mormons about Heaven, they will always talk about “going to be where God is.” For most people this means Heaven, but for the members of the LDS Church this means the 3rd level or the highest level of Heaven. Within Mormon doctrine they teach that there are three levels of Heaven. The Celestial Kingdom (highest, where God is.), the Terrestrial Kingdom (Middle), and the Telestial Kingdom (lowest).

With three levels of Heaven, one would assume that there would be levels of Hell. However, the LDS Church does not believe in Hell as Christian’s understand it. They believe in a place known as outer darkness, described as “where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.”15 But it is just understood as a place of darkness, and only a handful of people are there.

1. God and Jesus are only in the highest level of Heaven. When it comes to the afterlife for a member of the LDS Church, they want to be where God is. Heavenly Father is only in the highest level of Heaven, the Celestial Kingdom.

The only way for a someone to reach this level of Heaven is by being a member of the Mormon Church, being allowed to enter the Temple, paying his tithes, being married and sealed to his wife/ family in the temple, and by holding the priesthood and doing works for the church.

2. The other two levels are for everyone else. Most people within an evangelical church will go to the Terrestrial Kingdom (middle or second level). This place is for those who are Christians but were not part of the LDS Church. The Terrestrial Kingdom is for almost everyone else.

3. Outer darkness only has a handful of people in it. “Outer Darkness. These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever.”16

When talking to any member of the LDS Church, they will tell you that this means only members of the LDS Church that have been given a testimony of Jesus Christ, yet have rejected that knowledge, are in outer darkness, and that number is only a handful.

Because of these statements, the realization that almost everyone is in a level of Heaven comes clear. No matter who you are or what you do, you will go to Heaven. However, Mormons work hard through their church events, outreach, and community clubs so that they may reach the 3rd level, the Celestial Kingdom where God is.

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1 Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345.

2 Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church – Joseph Smith, p. 42.

3 Joseph F. Smith, “The Nature of the Godhead,” Ensign, January 2006, p. 51.

4 Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323

5 Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68.

6 Gospel Fundamentals, 2002, p. 5

7 John A. Widtsoe, Rational Theology, 1915, p. 61

8 George Albert Smith, Conference Reports, October 1926, p. 103. George Albert Smith was the 8th President of the LDS church.

9 Article Eight, Articles of Faith in the Pearl of Great Price

10 Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 46

11 True to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, 2004, p. 158

12 Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 45

13 James Faust, Ensign, November 2001, p. 18

14 Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 670

15 Doctrine and Covenants 101:91

16Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 273

Was Joseph Smith Really a Prophet from God?

From http://www.equip.org/perspectives/was-joseph-smith-really-a-prophet-from-god/

WAS JOSEPH SMITH A PROPHET?- Introduction
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, claimed to be a prophet of God.  Was he?

WAS JOSEPH SMITH A PROPHET?- Smith’s Vision
In determining whether Joseph Smith was a prophet of God we need first to look at Smith’s so-called “first vision,” in which God supposedly instructed the would-be prophet to start a new church — what was to become the Mormon church.  The evidence shows, however that Smith’s testimony suffers from a host of internal discrepancies.  For example, the earliest recorded account of Smith’s “first vision” makes mention only of Jesus Christ, whereas other accounts report the appearance of both Jesus and God the Father, or of an angel, or a group of angels.  Whatever the case may be, it’s clear to see that such conflicting reports only serve to cast doubt on the veracity of Smith’s testimony.  Keep in mind that several of these accounts came from the same man — Joseph Smith himself.

WAS JOSEPH SMITH A PROPHET?- Prophetic Accuracy
Turning now to prophetic accuracy, we find that Smith fares no better than he did in recounting his alleged encounter with God.  According to Deuteronomy 18:22, God’s prophets have a one hundred percent rate of accuracy — that is to say, their prophetic predictions never miss the mark.  Unfortunately for Smith, such standards proved too much for him.  We note, for example, that Smith predicted that a Mormon temple in Missouri would be constructed before all of the people living in 1832 pass away.  This did not occur.

WAS JOSEPH SMITH A PROPHET?- A Different god?
But even if Smith were flawless in all his predictions (which certainly was not the case), according to Deuteronomy 13:1-3 he would still not qualify as a prophet of God because he was speaking for a false god — a god other than the One revealed in Scripture.  The facts lead us to draw only one conclusion: that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet, but a false prophet.  And remember, the irony is that is was Joseph Smith who attacked Christianity by saying that all its teachers were corrupt.

On Joseph Smith and the question “Was Joseph Smith a Prophet?”, that’s the CRI Perspective.  I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

Who Created Everything???

As I think about the creation of the world, I think about all the things that God has done.  From the snow that lay on the ground now to the birds that sing and the air which we breath, God created it all. 

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.  Gen 1:1 (ESV)

Like The Bible say; “God Created”.  But I look to the LDS religion to see what they believe in this area.  I remember that the LDS do clam to have the bible in there canon and even in the Articles of Faith is says; 

“We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly…” (Article Eight, Articles of Faith).

So then I look at creation and I think to myself, “Is there some we can agree on?”  Well again there is no because we do not agree on creation because of all the LDS reading I have done, the LDS do not believe in creation as told in the Bible. 

I know, I know… the LDS clam to believe the Bible and where is say, “God Created” but that is not what is taught by LDS in there own works.  Let us look at what the teachers of LDS theology says;

“God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law by which the worlds were, are, or will exist. There is an eternity before us, and it is full of matter; and if we but understand enough of the Lord and his ways, we would say that he took of this matter and organized the earth from it. How long has been organized it is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it” (Brigham Young, May 14, 1871, Journal of Discourses 14:116).

God never made?  But Genesis says He created. 

When Christians talk about God creating the Heavens and Earth, we believe He created all things.  And I mean ALL THINGS. 

“AND then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (Abraham 4:1).

Again, Christians believe that God Created not organized and formed the world. 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.  John 1:1-3 (HCSB)

The Gospel of John makes it clear that ALL THINGS were created through Jesus Christ.  Not formed and organized.

So was the earth created or just organized?  Do we believe the Bible (which the LDS clam they do) or believe man? 

What Happens When A Mormon is Shown the Truth?

 

When the truth is shown to you, one should believe and not turn away because that’s how they were raised.  To many times I talk with people in the LDS faith and this is the type of things I hear.  Even when I show them facts for their own books, they are still clouded by the lies that they have been told all their lives.

I pray that the people in this video and other Mormons look more into the history of the LDS church and the writings of the early church leaders because as soon as you do, you will see that the begging LDS was total different then what it is today.   

END OF LINE…

Wretched: The Scary History of Mormonism

My LDS Library

here is my LDS Library

Mormon Church Refuses To Acknowledge Racism

Is There Any Official Mormon Church Doctrine?

From evidenceministries.org

Did Joseph Smith teach that God was once a man as we are now?

I am the Lord, and there is no other; there is no God but Me. Isaiah 45:5 (HCSB)

27 You will know that I am present in Israel and that I am the Lord your God, and there is no other. Joel 2:27 (HCSB)

Question of the Day

If the Book of Mormon was first penned between 600BC and AD 421, as claimed, how could it contain such extensive quotations from the AD 1611 KJV (using archaic King James English), which was not written until more than 1000 years later?

Joseph Smith Joins Methodist Church in 1828

Here we have video from Heart of the Matter that states that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church 8 years after God told him not to join any Church because there creeds where abomination. 

Now some LDS just say that he was not a full member but just checking it out. Some say it was a class that someone took him to but over all, Joseph Smith had his name placed in a book to join the church.  again, 8 years after God told him not to. 

Here are the quotes:

He presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members. (The Amboy Journal, Amboy, Illinois, April 30, 1879, p.1)

I, with Joshua McKune, a local preacher at that time, I think in June, 1828, heard on Saturday, that Joe Smith had joined the church on Wednesday afternoon, (as it was customary in those days to have circuit preaching at my father's house on week-day). We thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it. So on Sunday we went to father's, the place of meeting that day, and got there in season to see Smith and talked with him some time in father's shop before the meeting. Told him that his occupation, habits, and moral character were at variance with the discipline, that his name would be a disgrace to the church, that there should have been recantation, confession and at least promised reformation-. That he could that day publicly ask that his name be stricken from the class book, or stand an investigation. He chose the former, and did that very day make the request that his name be taken off the class book. (The Amboy Journal, June 11, 1879, p.1).

Now looking a the FAIR website, they almost just total look over these facts.  according to the FAIR website they say;

Did Joseph join other churches contrary to commandment in vision?—Critics charge that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches between 1820 and 1830—despite the claim made in his 1838 history that he was forbidden by Deity (during the 1820 First Vision experience) from joining any denomination.

also saying;

No critic who has charged Joseph Smith with joining a church between 1820 and 1830 has ever produced any authentic denominational membership record that would substantiate such a claim. Eyewitness reminiscences and contemporary records provide strong evidence that this claim is not valid and, therefore, does not reflect historical reality.

1st Like so many of the early Methodist records, the early class books of the Harmony (now Lanesboro) Church are lost, so we will never know for certain whether Joseph Smith remained a member for only three days or six months. However, there was never any dispute that he had become a member, and by this one act he undercut the story he later put forth that God in a special vision had instructed him specifically not to join the Methodist Church.       (taken from http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm)

2nd It is easy for people in the Mormon faith to believe in the Book of Mormon with no Authentic Record before 1820 but they believe in it. 

3rd This event is also mentioned in Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda K. Newell and Valeen T. Avery, University of Illinois Press, 1994, p.25.

Emma's uncle, Nathaniel Lewis, preached as a lay minister of the local Methodist Episcopal church. His congregation met in the homes of the members for Sunday services. On Wednesdays a regular circuit preacher visited Harmony. In the spring or summer of 1828 Joseph asked the circuit rider if his name could be included on the class roll of the church. Joseph "presented himself in a very serious and humble manner," and the minister obliged him.

When Emma's cousin, Joseph Lewis, discovered Joseph's name on the roll, he "thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer" as a member. He took the matter up with a friend, and the following Sunday, when Joseph and Emma arrived for church, the two men steered Joseph aside and into the family shop. "They told him plainly that such character as he . . . could not be a member of the church unless he broke off his sins by repentance, made public confession, renounced his fraudulent and hypocritical practices, and gave some evidence that he intended to reform and conduct himself somewhat nearer like a christian than he had done. They gave him his choice to go before the class, and publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class book, or stand a disciplinary investigation." Joseph refused to comply with the humiliating demands and withdrew from the class. His name, however, stayed on the roll for about six more months, either from oversight or because Emma's brother-in-law, Michael Morse, who taught the class, did not know of the confrontation. When Joseph did not seek full membership, Morse finally dropped his name.²"

Page 314, footnote 2:
Amboy Journal, 11 June and 30 April 1879. In 1879 Joseph and Hiel Lewis, sons of Uncle Nathaniel Lewis, debated with a Mormon named Edwin Cadwell over events in Harmony while Emma and Joseph lived there. The Amboy Journal reproduced their letters.

Taken from www.utlm.org  http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm

It is clear that Joseph Smith, being burned by the Methodist Church, tried to erased this from his history because of earlier claims and then the idea of the first vision that the LDS church being the One and Only true church. 

Again, here is the proof. Take it or leave it but it is there.

END OF LINE…

The Fall was Good?

Last night as I was looking through my 1979 copy of Gospel Principles, I find myself reading about Adam and Eve and the fall.  Now I have looked into this before and have heard of that the LDS church teaches that the fall was a good thing but I had never actually took the time to study it. The main reason is that I never could believe that a group that claims they worship God could say that sin was a good thing.  But The teachings of the Mormon church does say that the fall of Adam and Eve, sin, was a good thing. 

This is what it says in Gospel Principles;

“Some people believe that Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all mankind” (Gospel Principles, 1979, p. 31). 

Now this one quote was not has hard to read then some of the quotes from Mormons teaching that parse sin. 

  “ADAM AND EVE REJOICED IN THE FALL. Before partaking of the fruit Adam could have lived forever; therefore, his status was one of immortality. When he ate, he became subject to death, and therefore he became mortal. This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do! I am sure that neither Adam nor Eve looked upon it as a sin, when they learned the consequences, and this is discovered in their words after they learned the consequences” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:115. See also The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327, p. 13).

“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise” (Russell M. Nelson, “Constancy amid Change,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, p. 34).

“Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we should have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve, why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to His government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and He had designed that they should.” (Brigham Young, June 10-13, 1864, Journal of Discourses 10:312).

Brigham Young stated that God designed that they would sin.  This me wonder why God would ever tell not to eat of the tree in the first place. 

Christian understand that sin is wrong and has always been wrong.  even the Mormons teach that  Satan and his followers sinned in Heaven and turned on God and was punished but they look at Adams sin and say it was a good thing?  this does not make any since at all? 

The Bible makes it clear that sin is wrong.  Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of there sins and people have died because they have sin ageist God.  If sin was apart of God’s plan then why would we need to be forgiven of sin. 

Even the book of Mormon makes it clear that sin is wrong;

  “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37).

Sin can’t save or be part of God’s plan.  The whole idea of God is that he is perfect and that sin is us going ageist God.  He would not set us for us to sin to move is plans along. 

If we believe that Adam’s sin was good and needed to be done, that would  take away for the great and powerful will of God. We have to understand that God does not need us to move His plan and He does not need us to sin to let His plan happen.  God is God and we are just man.  He is our creator and we can not change His plan.

God, Your Will Be Done!!!  Not mine.

Sin is not good any time or any reason. Jesus went to the cross because of sin and died because of the sin that we commit. 

8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.       1 John 3:8-10 (HCSB)

END OF LINE…

Who’s Closer?

When it comes to understanding where Biblical Christian and Mormons stand with each other, The Mormon tries to believe that we are one in the same.  I any Bible believing that has study the matter sees that the Mormon and Biblical Christian are no where close to being the same. 

In my blog post, My Top 10 questions I asked the question and also showing a chat showing to 2 different ideas of God in both the Mormon faith and the Christian faith.

As I show that it is clear the we believe in two different God’s, Mormons who answered the question still told me that we had the same God.  HOW CAN THIS BE? 

One day the Bishop’s wife stop by my house to talk and get to know me.  She asked me if I believe that they where not Christians. As I told her, I wish I could but the Mormons faith does not believe in the God of the Bible.  She then asked me, “Is it because we don’t believe in the Trinity”.  YES YES YSE, that’s a main reason.

To try to make it more clear Biblical Christians believe in the Trinity, Mormons don’t. Biblical Christians believe that there is only one God and will be only one God, Mormons don’t. Biblical Christians believe the Bible is the only Holy Book from God, Mormons don’t. And I could go on and on about how we are different but there are still Mormons who believe we are the same.

But let me ask my Mormons friends read this a questions, “If you believe that we are the same, are members of the FLDS Mormons?”

As I have asked this questions to Mormons I get the answer, NO THEY ARE NOT. but why?  I mean they believe in Joseph Smith as Prophet. They believe in the Book of Mormons. they believe in the temple. they believe in almost all the same teachings as the main stream LDS church.  But the LDS church has casted  them out.   but again I want to point out, The FLDS is closer in belief with Mormons than the LDS church is with Biblical Christianity.  

Think about it. 

END OF LINE…

No 1820 Revival

From www.mrm.org written by: Wesley Walters http://www.mrm.org/first-vision

First, his neighborhood in 1820 experienced no revival such as he described, in which "great multitudes" joined the Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian churches. The Presbyterian records for the Palmyra Presbyterian Church show that it experienced no revival in 1820. (See Geneva Presbytery "Records," Presbyterian Historical Society.) The local Baptist church gained only six on profession of faith the entire year ("Records for the First Baptist Church in Palmyra," American Baptist Historical Society) while the Methodists actually lost members that year as well as the preceding and following years (Minutes of the Annual Conference).

Joseph Smith claimed that his mother, sister and two brothers were led to join the local Presbyterian Church as a result of that 1820 revival. However, four years before he made this claim, his own church paper had stated that the revival in which his family had been led to join the Presbyterian Church took place in 1823 (Messenger & Advocate I, pp. 42, 78). In fact, that account says it was the same 1823 revival that led him to go to his bedroom (not to a sacred grove) and pray "if a Supreme being did exist" and to know that "he was accepted of him." An angel (not a deity) is then reported to have appeared and told him of his forgiveness and of the gold plates.

Joseph's mother, likewise, knew nothing of an 1820 vision. In her unpublished account, she traces the origin of Mormonism to a bedroom visit by an angel. Joseph at the time had been "pondering which of the churches were the true one." The angel told him "there is not a true church on Earth. No not one" (First draft of "Lucy Smith's History," LDS Church Archives).

Furthermore, she tells us that the revival which led her joining the church took place following the death of her son, Alvin. Alvin died Nov. 19, 1823, and following that painful loss she reports that, "about this time there was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject and we among the rest, flocked to the meeting house to see if there was a word of comfort for us that might relieve our over-charged feelings" (p. 55-56).

She adds that although her husband would only attend the first meetings, he had no objection to her or the children "going or becoming church members." There is plenty of additional evidence that the revival Lucy Smith refers to did occur during the winter of 1824-25. It was reported in at least a dozen newspapers and religious periodicals. The church records show outstanding increases due to the reception of new converts. The Baptist church received 94, the Presbyterian 99, while the Methodist work grew by 208. No such revival bringing in "great multitudes" occurred in 1820.

It is clear that the revival Joseph Smith, Jr. described did not occur in 1820, but in 1824. Joseph Smith arbitrarily moved that revival back four years to 1820 and made it fit a First Vision story that neither his mother nor other close associates had heard of in those early days. The historical facts completely discredit Joseph Smith's First Vision story. (For further details, see "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought" Spring 1969, pp. 59-100.)

http://www.archive.org/download/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.11.22.No1820Revival.mp3

He Said What!?!?

The Bible tells us time and time again not to boast about ourselves and things that we have done but only to boast in the LORD. 

3 Do not boast so proudly, or let arrogant ⌊words⌋ come out of your mouth, for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and actions are weighed by Him.  1 Sam 2:3 (HCSB)

23 This is what the Lord says:
The wise man must not boast in his wisdom; the strong man must not boast in his strength; the wealthy man must not boast in his wealth. 24 But the one who boasts should boast in this, that he understands and knows Me — that I am the Lord, showing faithful love, justice, and righteousness on the earth, for I delight in these things. ⌊This is⌋ the Lord’s declaration. Jer 9:23-24 (HCSB)

This is something that is strongly understood in the Christian faith and if and when pastor and others have boasted about things they have done, they have been or should be called on them. 

But as I write this I think of a quote from Joseph Smith that not only did he boast but claimed he did better then Jesus…

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I” (Joseph Smith, May 26, 1844, History of the Church 6:408-409).

HE SAID WHAT!?!?

Now if a pastor/leader in any Christian church said something like this, they would be called a heretic.  To say that one has done more to keep the church together then Christ like Joseph Smith did is unthinkable. 

I mean Jesus is God and saying that one has done anything better then God… well I just can put it into words. 

END OF LINE…

Math

The Book of Mormon is Correct?

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:461. See also Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194).

Joseph Smith made this bold claim about The Book of Mormon.  To be fair, if the Book of Mormon is true the way that Joseph Smith translated this book is only with the absolute power of God. 

The way that Joseph Smith translated the book is told in church history is by the method told below:

“The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote: ‘I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man’” (Russell M. Nelson, “A Treasured Testament,” Ensign, July 1993, p. 61. Citing David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 12).

So looking over this, it is easy to say that the book of Mormon has to be from God. I mean if God showed easy word/letter to Joseph Smith, then How can it be wrong.

BUT WAIT…

If God helped Joseph translate the Book of Mormon,  then why is there more then 4000 changes to the Book of Mormon?  One would think that God would have got it right the first time.

These changes are not just to fix the grammar issues that was in the Book of Mormon (I guess God can’t spell), But was to also change theology.

One change that we can see is in 1Nephi 11:21 which now says; 21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

But the 1830 version says;  11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

So the new version makes the Lamb of God (Jesus) into the son of god, meaning the first begotten, spirit brother.

The 1830 version says that the Lamb of God (Jesus) is God, God in the flesh, the creator, The Word 100% God 100% man. 

So there seems to be a issue with The Book of Mormon in the changing of scripture. If the power of God really did gave Joseph Smith ever letter and every word then why would it need to be changed so much?  

Also it is important to point out that the Book of Mormon uses 27000 words directly from the King James Bible (1611).  If the Book of Mormon was first pinned between 600BC and 421AD how can it quote the King James Bible that was Written until 1000 years later? If the Book of Mormon was true and only came about when Joseph Smith found the golden plates, then why was the book “view of the Hebrews” so parallel to each other?

When you look at the evidence shown in how The Book of Mormon came to be, you will find that it was made by man and not given from God.  If the Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God then there would not be over 4000 changes.  If the Book of Mormon was pinned between 600bc and 421ad it would not quote the King James Bible word for word. If the Book of Mormon it would not sound like another book that came out 7 years before the Book of Mormon.

Do the math…

King James Bible + View of the Hebrews +Joseph Smith  = Book of Mormon

END OF LINE…

Still waiting! 4th week in a row call out for any General Authority-Scott Gordon

Thanks Contend4theFaith1

Are Ancient Coins Mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

By Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson from www.mrm.org

There are a number of coins mentioned in the Bible, including the denarius, the lepton (widow's mite), and the shekel. While the nicer coins are marked at a premium, many are common coins and can be purchased for a few hundred dollars. For instance, there are hundreds of thousands of authentic widow's mite coins from 2,000 years ago; in fact, an authentic coin referred to by Jesus in Luke 21:2 can be purchased for just a few dollars in a coin shop or on the Internet.

Some have criticized the Mormon Church for its failure to provide evidence for any Nephite coins. But should we really expect the LDS Church to produce them? Coinage in the Western Hemisphere during the Book of Mormon time period was unknown. The use of coins did not become popular until the sixteenth century, more than a millennium after the last Nephite had allegedly died. However, the problem does not lie in a lack of Nephite coins. Rather, it lies in Joseph Smith's implication that such coins existed in the first place.

According to Smith, the Book of Mormon states in Alma 11:4, "Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value." Verses 5-19 list several measurements of gold (senine, seon, shum and limnah) and silver (senum, amnor, ezrom and onti). In lower numbers, there were shiblons (worth half a senum), shiblums (half a shiblon), and leahs (half a shiblum). This, according to Alma 11:20, was the measurement of money that the people received for their wages.

The introduction to Alma chapter 11 states that these are "Nephite coins and measures." This explanation comes to us via James Talmage, a Mormon apostle who was commissioned to add both chapter headings and footnotes to the Book of Mormon. James P. Harris, author of The Essential James E. Talmage, noted that Talmage "was customarily meticulous, making sure there were no errors or omissions" (p.xxix).

If these items are actually coins, shouldn't archaeologists expect to find evidence of them as places thought to be Book of Mormon lands are unearthed? In the many ruins uncovered in the Middle East, archaeologists are able to date their findings by the numerous coins they normally find in the same level of their dig.

However, since no Book of Mormon coins have been found, a common LDS response is to dismiss Talmage's explanation altogether.

BYU professor Daniel C. Peterson states,

"It is, alas, quite true that there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of Book of Mormon coins. Not even in the Book of Mormon itself. The text of the Book of Mormon never mentions the word 'coin' or any variant of it. The reference to 'Nephite coinage' in the chapter heading to Alma 11 is not part of the original text, and is mistaken. Alma 11 is almost certainly talking about standardized weights of metal—a historical step toward coinage, but not yet the real thing" (Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, 5:55)

Mormon apologist Michael Griffith agrees. "Nowhere in the Book of Mormon is the use of coins even mentioned. The term 'coins' in the chapter heading to Alma 11 is a mistake of modern editing, not a part of the original text itself" (Refuting the Critics, p. 60).

Peterson and Griffith's analysis seems to understand how damaging it would be if Alma had been referring to actual coins. Commonly used coins in any culture always have a way of showing up. They don't just disappear entirely from the face of the earth. This compels the Mormon apologist to say that these references were merely weight measurements and would not be something that could be discovered on an archaeological dig. But there are several serious flaws with this rationale.

First, the LDS Church has seen no reason to delete or modify the introduction to Alma 11 despite the protests from the above–named laymembers. It reads the same today as it has since 1920. If coinage is not meant, it seems strange that the church would continue to print this particular heading. On this point alone, the LDS apologist's conclusion seems presumptuous since this introduction to Alma 11 was obviously approved by the LDS First Presidency.

Second, for decades this passage has been understood by Latter-day Saints to speak of coins. For example, B.H. Roberts, a highly respected LDS Seventy and church historian, wrote, "In addition to these words we have also a number of names of Nephite coins and the names of fractional values of coins…" Roberts proceeds to explain the different values, often using the term "coins" to describe them. Though Roberts says "we have no means of obtaining specifically the value of these coins in modern terms," he adds that "there is stated a system of relative values in these coins that bears evidence of its being genuine" (A New Witness for God, 3:145).

Finally, we disagree with Dr. Peterson's claim that no variant of the word coin is used in the text. Taking his advice that Noah Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language is perhaps "our best source for the language of Joseph Smith and his contemporaries" (Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, 5:8) we find that under the word "piece" (the word Smith used in Alma 11:4), there are several definitions. However, none of them have any meaning that would fit Alma 11:4 until the eighth definition: "A coin; as a piece of eight." The meaning for "piece" in Joseph Smith's day was coin.

Click on image to view full size

This rule is followed in the 1979 Book of Mormon Student Manual - Religion 121-122 when a subheading asks students "How Valuable Were the Nephite Pieces of Money?" Showing that "pieces" meant "coins," the manual presents a chart to show "the relative value of silver and gold coins under the system set up by Mosiah" (p.229).

Conclusion

History shows that there was no coinage in the Western world during the supposed time of Nephites and Lamanites despite the fact that there should be if the Book of Mormon is an actual history of real people and real events. Mormon apologists can haggle over the absence of the word "coin" all they want, but the fact remains that the language of Smith's day and how these passages were understood clearly show that Alma 11 is referencing ancient Nephite coins. This issue of coinage is just one of a number of areas that can be used to show that the Book of Mormon is a product of Joseph Smith's nineteenth century world and not an ancient document.

View of the Hebrews-1823 Book of Mormon-1829 very very similar stories