Joseph Smith Joins Methodist Church in 1828

Here we have video from Heart of the Matter that states that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church 8 years after God told him not to join any Church because there creeds where abomination. 

Now some LDS just say that he was not a full member but just checking it out. Some say it was a class that someone took him to but over all, Joseph Smith had his name placed in a book to join the church.  again, 8 years after God told him not to. 

Here are the quotes:

He presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members. (The Amboy Journal, Amboy, Illinois, April 30, 1879, p.1)

I, with Joshua McKune, a local preacher at that time, I think in June, 1828, heard on Saturday, that Joe Smith had joined the church on Wednesday afternoon, (as it was customary in those days to have circuit preaching at my father's house on week-day). We thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it. So on Sunday we went to father's, the place of meeting that day, and got there in season to see Smith and talked with him some time in father's shop before the meeting. Told him that his occupation, habits, and moral character were at variance with the discipline, that his name would be a disgrace to the church, that there should have been recantation, confession and at least promised reformation-. That he could that day publicly ask that his name be stricken from the class book, or stand an investigation. He chose the former, and did that very day make the request that his name be taken off the class book. (The Amboy Journal, June 11, 1879, p.1).

Now looking a the FAIR website, they almost just total look over these facts.  according to the FAIR website they say;

Did Joseph join other churches contrary to commandment in vision?—Critics charge that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches between 1820 and 1830—despite the claim made in his 1838 history that he was forbidden by Deity (during the 1820 First Vision experience) from joining any denomination.

also saying;

No critic who has charged Joseph Smith with joining a church between 1820 and 1830 has ever produced any authentic denominational membership record that would substantiate such a claim. Eyewitness reminiscences and contemporary records provide strong evidence that this claim is not valid and, therefore, does not reflect historical reality.

1st Like so many of the early Methodist records, the early class books of the Harmony (now Lanesboro) Church are lost, so we will never know for certain whether Joseph Smith remained a member for only three days or six months. However, there was never any dispute that he had become a member, and by this one act he undercut the story he later put forth that God in a special vision had instructed him specifically not to join the Methodist Church.       (taken from http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm)

2nd It is easy for people in the Mormon faith to believe in the Book of Mormon with no Authentic Record before 1820 but they believe in it. 

3rd This event is also mentioned in Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda K. Newell and Valeen T. Avery, University of Illinois Press, 1994, p.25.

Emma's uncle, Nathaniel Lewis, preached as a lay minister of the local Methodist Episcopal church. His congregation met in the homes of the members for Sunday services. On Wednesdays a regular circuit preacher visited Harmony. In the spring or summer of 1828 Joseph asked the circuit rider if his name could be included on the class roll of the church. Joseph "presented himself in a very serious and humble manner," and the minister obliged him.

When Emma's cousin, Joseph Lewis, discovered Joseph's name on the roll, he "thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer" as a member. He took the matter up with a friend, and the following Sunday, when Joseph and Emma arrived for church, the two men steered Joseph aside and into the family shop. "They told him plainly that such character as he . . . could not be a member of the church unless he broke off his sins by repentance, made public confession, renounced his fraudulent and hypocritical practices, and gave some evidence that he intended to reform and conduct himself somewhat nearer like a christian than he had done. They gave him his choice to go before the class, and publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class book, or stand a disciplinary investigation." Joseph refused to comply with the humiliating demands and withdrew from the class. His name, however, stayed on the roll for about six more months, either from oversight or because Emma's brother-in-law, Michael Morse, who taught the class, did not know of the confrontation. When Joseph did not seek full membership, Morse finally dropped his name.²"

Page 314, footnote 2:
Amboy Journal, 11 June and 30 April 1879. In 1879 Joseph and Hiel Lewis, sons of Uncle Nathaniel Lewis, debated with a Mormon named Edwin Cadwell over events in Harmony while Emma and Joseph lived there. The Amboy Journal reproduced their letters.

Taken from www.utlm.org  http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm

It is clear that Joseph Smith, being burned by the Methodist Church, tried to erased this from his history because of earlier claims and then the idea of the first vision that the LDS church being the One and Only true church. 

Again, here is the proof. Take it or leave it but it is there.

END OF LINE…

The Fall was Good?

Last night as I was looking through my 1979 copy of Gospel Principles, I find myself reading about Adam and Eve and the fall.  Now I have looked into this before and have heard of that the LDS church teaches that the fall was a good thing but I had never actually took the time to study it. The main reason is that I never could believe that a group that claims they worship God could say that sin was a good thing.  But The teachings of the Mormon church does say that the fall of Adam and Eve, sin, was a good thing. 

This is what it says in Gospel Principles;

“Some people believe that Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all mankind” (Gospel Principles, 1979, p. 31). 

Now this one quote was not has hard to read then some of the quotes from Mormons teaching that parse sin. 

  “ADAM AND EVE REJOICED IN THE FALL. Before partaking of the fruit Adam could have lived forever; therefore, his status was one of immortality. When he ate, he became subject to death, and therefore he became mortal. This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do! I am sure that neither Adam nor Eve looked upon it as a sin, when they learned the consequences, and this is discovered in their words after they learned the consequences” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:115. See also The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327, p. 13).

“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise” (Russell M. Nelson, “Constancy amid Change,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, p. 34).

“Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we should have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve, why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to His government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and He had designed that they should.” (Brigham Young, June 10-13, 1864, Journal of Discourses 10:312).

Brigham Young stated that God designed that they would sin.  This me wonder why God would ever tell not to eat of the tree in the first place. 

Christian understand that sin is wrong and has always been wrong.  even the Mormons teach that  Satan and his followers sinned in Heaven and turned on God and was punished but they look at Adams sin and say it was a good thing?  this does not make any since at all? 

The Bible makes it clear that sin is wrong.  Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of there sins and people have died because they have sin ageist God.  If sin was apart of God’s plan then why would we need to be forgiven of sin. 

Even the book of Mormon makes it clear that sin is wrong;

  “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37).

Sin can’t save or be part of God’s plan.  The whole idea of God is that he is perfect and that sin is us going ageist God.  He would not set us for us to sin to move is plans along. 

If we believe that Adam’s sin was good and needed to be done, that would  take away for the great and powerful will of God. We have to understand that God does not need us to move His plan and He does not need us to sin to let His plan happen.  God is God and we are just man.  He is our creator and we can not change His plan.

God, Your Will Be Done!!!  Not mine.

Sin is not good any time or any reason. Jesus went to the cross because of sin and died because of the sin that we commit. 

8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.       1 John 3:8-10 (HCSB)

END OF LINE…

Who’s Closer?

When it comes to understanding where Biblical Christian and Mormons stand with each other, The Mormon tries to believe that we are one in the same.  I any Bible believing that has study the matter sees that the Mormon and Biblical Christian are no where close to being the same. 

In my blog post, My Top 10 questions I asked the question and also showing a chat showing to 2 different ideas of God in both the Mormon faith and the Christian faith.

As I show that it is clear the we believe in two different God’s, Mormons who answered the question still told me that we had the same God.  HOW CAN THIS BE? 

One day the Bishop’s wife stop by my house to talk and get to know me.  She asked me if I believe that they where not Christians. As I told her, I wish I could but the Mormons faith does not believe in the God of the Bible.  She then asked me, “Is it because we don’t believe in the Trinity”.  YES YES YSE, that’s a main reason.

To try to make it more clear Biblical Christians believe in the Trinity, Mormons don’t. Biblical Christians believe that there is only one God and will be only one God, Mormons don’t. Biblical Christians believe the Bible is the only Holy Book from God, Mormons don’t. And I could go on and on about how we are different but there are still Mormons who believe we are the same.

But let me ask my Mormons friends read this a questions, “If you believe that we are the same, are members of the FLDS Mormons?”

As I have asked this questions to Mormons I get the answer, NO THEY ARE NOT. but why?  I mean they believe in Joseph Smith as Prophet. They believe in the Book of Mormons. they believe in the temple. they believe in almost all the same teachings as the main stream LDS church.  But the LDS church has casted  them out.   but again I want to point out, The FLDS is closer in belief with Mormons than the LDS church is with Biblical Christianity.  

Think about it. 

END OF LINE…

No 1820 Revival

From www.mrm.org written by: Wesley Walters http://www.mrm.org/first-vision

First, his neighborhood in 1820 experienced no revival such as he described, in which "great multitudes" joined the Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian churches. The Presbyterian records for the Palmyra Presbyterian Church show that it experienced no revival in 1820. (See Geneva Presbytery "Records," Presbyterian Historical Society.) The local Baptist church gained only six on profession of faith the entire year ("Records for the First Baptist Church in Palmyra," American Baptist Historical Society) while the Methodists actually lost members that year as well as the preceding and following years (Minutes of the Annual Conference).

Joseph Smith claimed that his mother, sister and two brothers were led to join the local Presbyterian Church as a result of that 1820 revival. However, four years before he made this claim, his own church paper had stated that the revival in which his family had been led to join the Presbyterian Church took place in 1823 (Messenger & Advocate I, pp. 42, 78). In fact, that account says it was the same 1823 revival that led him to go to his bedroom (not to a sacred grove) and pray "if a Supreme being did exist" and to know that "he was accepted of him." An angel (not a deity) is then reported to have appeared and told him of his forgiveness and of the gold plates.

Joseph's mother, likewise, knew nothing of an 1820 vision. In her unpublished account, she traces the origin of Mormonism to a bedroom visit by an angel. Joseph at the time had been "pondering which of the churches were the true one." The angel told him "there is not a true church on Earth. No not one" (First draft of "Lucy Smith's History," LDS Church Archives).

Furthermore, she tells us that the revival which led her joining the church took place following the death of her son, Alvin. Alvin died Nov. 19, 1823, and following that painful loss she reports that, "about this time there was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject and we among the rest, flocked to the meeting house to see if there was a word of comfort for us that might relieve our over-charged feelings" (p. 55-56).

She adds that although her husband would only attend the first meetings, he had no objection to her or the children "going or becoming church members." There is plenty of additional evidence that the revival Lucy Smith refers to did occur during the winter of 1824-25. It was reported in at least a dozen newspapers and religious periodicals. The church records show outstanding increases due to the reception of new converts. The Baptist church received 94, the Presbyterian 99, while the Methodist work grew by 208. No such revival bringing in "great multitudes" occurred in 1820.

It is clear that the revival Joseph Smith, Jr. described did not occur in 1820, but in 1824. Joseph Smith arbitrarily moved that revival back four years to 1820 and made it fit a First Vision story that neither his mother nor other close associates had heard of in those early days. The historical facts completely discredit Joseph Smith's First Vision story. (For further details, see "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought" Spring 1969, pp. 59-100.)

http://www.archive.org/download/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.11.22.No1820Revival.mp3

He Said What!?!?

The Bible tells us time and time again not to boast about ourselves and things that we have done but only to boast in the LORD. 

3 Do not boast so proudly, or let arrogant ⌊words⌋ come out of your mouth, for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and actions are weighed by Him.  1 Sam 2:3 (HCSB)

23 This is what the Lord says:
The wise man must not boast in his wisdom; the strong man must not boast in his strength; the wealthy man must not boast in his wealth. 24 But the one who boasts should boast in this, that he understands and knows Me — that I am the Lord, showing faithful love, justice, and righteousness on the earth, for I delight in these things. ⌊This is⌋ the Lord’s declaration. Jer 9:23-24 (HCSB)

This is something that is strongly understood in the Christian faith and if and when pastor and others have boasted about things they have done, they have been or should be called on them. 

But as I write this I think of a quote from Joseph Smith that not only did he boast but claimed he did better then Jesus…

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I” (Joseph Smith, May 26, 1844, History of the Church 6:408-409).

HE SAID WHAT!?!?

Now if a pastor/leader in any Christian church said something like this, they would be called a heretic.  To say that one has done more to keep the church together then Christ like Joseph Smith did is unthinkable. 

I mean Jesus is God and saying that one has done anything better then God… well I just can put it into words. 

END OF LINE…

Math

The Book of Mormon is Correct?

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:461. See also Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194).

Joseph Smith made this bold claim about The Book of Mormon.  To be fair, if the Book of Mormon is true the way that Joseph Smith translated this book is only with the absolute power of God. 

The way that Joseph Smith translated the book is told in church history is by the method told below:

“The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote: ‘I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man’” (Russell M. Nelson, “A Treasured Testament,” Ensign, July 1993, p. 61. Citing David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 12).

So looking over this, it is easy to say that the book of Mormon has to be from God. I mean if God showed easy word/letter to Joseph Smith, then How can it be wrong.

BUT WAIT…

If God helped Joseph translate the Book of Mormon,  then why is there more then 4000 changes to the Book of Mormon?  One would think that God would have got it right the first time.

These changes are not just to fix the grammar issues that was in the Book of Mormon (I guess God can’t spell), But was to also change theology.

One change that we can see is in 1Nephi 11:21 which now says; 21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

But the 1830 version says;  11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

So the new version makes the Lamb of God (Jesus) into the son of god, meaning the first begotten, spirit brother.

The 1830 version says that the Lamb of God (Jesus) is God, God in the flesh, the creator, The Word 100% God 100% man. 

So there seems to be a issue with The Book of Mormon in the changing of scripture. If the power of God really did gave Joseph Smith ever letter and every word then why would it need to be changed so much?  

Also it is important to point out that the Book of Mormon uses 27000 words directly from the King James Bible (1611).  If the Book of Mormon was first pinned between 600BC and 421AD how can it quote the King James Bible that was Written until 1000 years later? If the Book of Mormon was true and only came about when Joseph Smith found the golden plates, then why was the book “view of the Hebrews” so parallel to each other?

When you look at the evidence shown in how The Book of Mormon came to be, you will find that it was made by man and not given from God.  If the Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God then there would not be over 4000 changes.  If the Book of Mormon was pinned between 600bc and 421ad it would not quote the King James Bible word for word. If the Book of Mormon it would not sound like another book that came out 7 years before the Book of Mormon.

Do the math…

King James Bible + View of the Hebrews +Joseph Smith  = Book of Mormon

END OF LINE…

Still waiting! 4th week in a row call out for any General Authority-Scott Gordon

Thanks Contend4theFaith1

Are Ancient Coins Mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

By Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson from www.mrm.org

There are a number of coins mentioned in the Bible, including the denarius, the lepton (widow's mite), and the shekel. While the nicer coins are marked at a premium, many are common coins and can be purchased for a few hundred dollars. For instance, there are hundreds of thousands of authentic widow's mite coins from 2,000 years ago; in fact, an authentic coin referred to by Jesus in Luke 21:2 can be purchased for just a few dollars in a coin shop or on the Internet.

Some have criticized the Mormon Church for its failure to provide evidence for any Nephite coins. But should we really expect the LDS Church to produce them? Coinage in the Western Hemisphere during the Book of Mormon time period was unknown. The use of coins did not become popular until the sixteenth century, more than a millennium after the last Nephite had allegedly died. However, the problem does not lie in a lack of Nephite coins. Rather, it lies in Joseph Smith's implication that such coins existed in the first place.

According to Smith, the Book of Mormon states in Alma 11:4, "Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value." Verses 5-19 list several measurements of gold (senine, seon, shum and limnah) and silver (senum, amnor, ezrom and onti). In lower numbers, there were shiblons (worth half a senum), shiblums (half a shiblon), and leahs (half a shiblum). This, according to Alma 11:20, was the measurement of money that the people received for their wages.

The introduction to Alma chapter 11 states that these are "Nephite coins and measures." This explanation comes to us via James Talmage, a Mormon apostle who was commissioned to add both chapter headings and footnotes to the Book of Mormon. James P. Harris, author of The Essential James E. Talmage, noted that Talmage "was customarily meticulous, making sure there were no errors or omissions" (p.xxix).

If these items are actually coins, shouldn't archaeologists expect to find evidence of them as places thought to be Book of Mormon lands are unearthed? In the many ruins uncovered in the Middle East, archaeologists are able to date their findings by the numerous coins they normally find in the same level of their dig.

However, since no Book of Mormon coins have been found, a common LDS response is to dismiss Talmage's explanation altogether.

BYU professor Daniel C. Peterson states,

"It is, alas, quite true that there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of Book of Mormon coins. Not even in the Book of Mormon itself. The text of the Book of Mormon never mentions the word 'coin' or any variant of it. The reference to 'Nephite coinage' in the chapter heading to Alma 11 is not part of the original text, and is mistaken. Alma 11 is almost certainly talking about standardized weights of metal—a historical step toward coinage, but not yet the real thing" (Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, 5:55)

Mormon apologist Michael Griffith agrees. "Nowhere in the Book of Mormon is the use of coins even mentioned. The term 'coins' in the chapter heading to Alma 11 is a mistake of modern editing, not a part of the original text itself" (Refuting the Critics, p. 60).

Peterson and Griffith's analysis seems to understand how damaging it would be if Alma had been referring to actual coins. Commonly used coins in any culture always have a way of showing up. They don't just disappear entirely from the face of the earth. This compels the Mormon apologist to say that these references were merely weight measurements and would not be something that could be discovered on an archaeological dig. But there are several serious flaws with this rationale.

First, the LDS Church has seen no reason to delete or modify the introduction to Alma 11 despite the protests from the above–named laymembers. It reads the same today as it has since 1920. If coinage is not meant, it seems strange that the church would continue to print this particular heading. On this point alone, the LDS apologist's conclusion seems presumptuous since this introduction to Alma 11 was obviously approved by the LDS First Presidency.

Second, for decades this passage has been understood by Latter-day Saints to speak of coins. For example, B.H. Roberts, a highly respected LDS Seventy and church historian, wrote, "In addition to these words we have also a number of names of Nephite coins and the names of fractional values of coins…" Roberts proceeds to explain the different values, often using the term "coins" to describe them. Though Roberts says "we have no means of obtaining specifically the value of these coins in modern terms," he adds that "there is stated a system of relative values in these coins that bears evidence of its being genuine" (A New Witness for God, 3:145).

Finally, we disagree with Dr. Peterson's claim that no variant of the word coin is used in the text. Taking his advice that Noah Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language is perhaps "our best source for the language of Joseph Smith and his contemporaries" (Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, 5:8) we find that under the word "piece" (the word Smith used in Alma 11:4), there are several definitions. However, none of them have any meaning that would fit Alma 11:4 until the eighth definition: "A coin; as a piece of eight." The meaning for "piece" in Joseph Smith's day was coin.

Click on image to view full size

This rule is followed in the 1979 Book of Mormon Student Manual - Religion 121-122 when a subheading asks students "How Valuable Were the Nephite Pieces of Money?" Showing that "pieces" meant "coins," the manual presents a chart to show "the relative value of silver and gold coins under the system set up by Mosiah" (p.229).

Conclusion

History shows that there was no coinage in the Western world during the supposed time of Nephites and Lamanites despite the fact that there should be if the Book of Mormon is an actual history of real people and real events. Mormon apologists can haggle over the absence of the word "coin" all they want, but the fact remains that the language of Smith's day and how these passages were understood clearly show that Alma 11 is referencing ancient Nephite coins. This issue of coinage is just one of a number of areas that can be used to show that the Book of Mormon is a product of Joseph Smith's nineteenth century world and not an ancient document.

View of the Hebrews-1823 Book of Mormon-1829 very very similar stories

My Top Ten Questions For Mormons

Update…

After looking over my top 10 question, I came to find that some of them may be taken the wrong way.  Because of this I wanted to update them so that members of the LDS church would not get upset with me or offended.  I only ask these questions because over the year the LDS church has asked non-LDS to ask these kinds of questions to learn more about the Mormon faith.  I will still keep the old questions up so that people can see the changes and answer them as well.

__________________________________________________________

NEW

1. Do you believe the Bible has been corrupted?

2. If the Bible is corrupted, then why does the LDS church still use the King James and not the Joseph Smith Translation?

3. Do you believe you can become a god?

4. As a paid clergy, do you believe I am paid by the Devil?

5. Looking at the chart below and if you agree with it, do we worship the same God?

One God of the Bible	Plural Gods of Mormonism
God The Father
Infinite	Finite
Always God	Became God
Absolutely Holy	Achieved Holiness
All Knowing	Achieved Knowledge
Eternal Perfect	Achieved Perfection
All Powerful	Attained Power
Only Creator	One of Many Designers
The Son (Jesus)
Eternal	Procreated by God and Wife
Creator	Our Brother
The Holy Spirit
Eternal	Procreated By God and Wife
Creator	A Spirit Brother
Human
Created on Earth	Same Species as God
Spiritually Adopted Children	Born to God and Wife

6. Moroni 8:18 says; for I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; he is unchangeable from eternity to all eternity.

My question is: If God is from eternity to all eternity, how can he have once been a man born by another God and wife on another planet?

7. Have you read the whole Bible or at least the New Testament? (Not the Joseph Smith Translation)

8. In the Bible when it talks about “He being pierced because of our transgression” and “we are healed by His wounds”, Evangelical Christians see this as refereeing to Jesus on the cross (Isaiah 53:5). Why Does the LDS church believe that Jesus paid for our sin in the Garden of Gethsemane?

9. If Jesus was the only begotten son of God, then how are we spirit sons and daughters of God and his wives as well?

10. If you came to find out that the Mormon faith was not true, would you leave it?

__________________________________________________________

OLD

1. How can the LDS church clam that the Bible has been corrupted when there is proof that shows it is not? Things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament.

2. If the Bible is corrupted, then why does the LDS church still use the King James and not the Joseph Smith Translation?

3. Do you believe you can become a god?

4. As a paid clergy, do you believe I am paid by the Devil?

5. If now the LDS members and bishops and other high up officials claim that we are all Christians, then how can the LDS church be the one and only true church and the rest and their creeds be an abomination?

6. Moroni 8:18 says; for I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; he is unchangeable from eternity to all eternity.

My question is: If God is from eternity to all eternity, how can he have once been a man born by another God and wife on another planet?

7. Have you read the whole Bible or at least the New Testament? (Not the Joseph Smith Translation)

8. Why in the Bible when it talks about “He being pierced because of our transgression” and “we are healed by His wounds”, refereeing to Jesus on the cross (Isaiah 53:5). Why Does the LDS church claim that Jesus paid for our sin in the Garden of Gethsemane?

9. If Jesus was the only begotten son of God, then how are we spirit sons and daughters of God and his wives as well?

10. If you came to find out that the Mormon faith was not true, would you leave it?

If you plan on giving an answer to any of these question, please make then more then 1 to 2 word answer on all but number 7.

3rd week in a row invitation and still waiting to hear from Scott Gordon or any General Authority.

Invitation still open to appear on the show.

Is Mormonism Christian?

From Dr. James White

Teachings of Thomas S. Monson (part 4)

“The Bible, as it has been transmitted over the centuries, has suf­fered the loss of many plain and precious parts. ‘We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.’ (The A of F 1:8.) Many versions of the Bible are available today. Unfor­tunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. However, the Lord has revealed clearly the doctrines of the gospel in these latter days. The most reliable way to measure the accu­racy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day rev­elations.” (Presi­dents Ezra Taft Benson, Gordon B. Hinckley, and Thomas Mon­son, “Letter Reaffirms use of King James Version Bible,” Church News, June 20, 1992, p. 3)

Now in this post I have used a quote not found in Thomas S. Monson’s book but never less it is scripture because he said it or wrote it.

“Those who listen to and follow the counsel of living prophets and apostles will not go astray. The teachings of living prophets provide an anchor of eternal truth in a world of shifting values and help avoid misery and sorrow” (Preach My Gospel, 2004, p. 75).

But in his book I was only able to find one spot that he talks about The Bible and that was in the section about scripture on pages 275-276. Now I do have to say the quote in his book on the bible was a very great quote and one I believe in as well. I know this seems strange that I would be saying this but read the quote and tell me what you think.

The Holy Bible is an inspiration to me. This sacred book has inspired the minds of men and has motivated readers to live the commandments of God and to love one another. It is printed in greater quantities, is translated into more languages, and has touched more humans hearts than any other volume. (“My Brother’s Keeper,” Ensign, May 1990, 46) (“Teachings of Thomas S. Monson,”2011, 276)

See what I mean, that is a good quote but it seems to go ageist the fist quote that I posted today. Anyone who has study the LDS church or is LDS you know that the bible is said to have mistakes and is only good as far as it’s translated correctly. Between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which one is more reliable?

Let us look at the know manuscripts for the Bible:

Manuscript Evidence for the New Testament

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now. Bottom line: the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

Manuscript Evidence for the Old Testament

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the accuracy of the transmission of the Bible.

In fact, in these scrolls discovered at Qumran in 1947, we have Old Testament manuscripts that date about a thousand years earlier (150 B.C.) than the other Old Testament manuscripts then in our possession (which dated to A.D. 900).
The significant thing is that when one compares the two sets of manuscripts, it is clear that they are essentially the same, with very few changes.

The fact that manuscripts separated by a thousand years are essentially the same indicates the incredible accuracy of the Old Testament's manuscript transmission.

A full copy of the Book of Isaiah was discovered at Qumran.

Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text.
The 5 percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling."

From manuscript discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Christians have undeniable evidence that today's Old Testament Scripture, for all practical purposes, is exactly the same as it was when originally inspired by God and recorded in the Bible.
Combine this with the massive amount of manuscript evidence we have for the New Testament, and it is clear that the Christian Bible is a trustworthy and reliable book.
The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in going about their work.

These copyists knew they were duplicating God's Word, so they went to incredible lengths to prevent error from creeping into their work.
The scribes carefully counted every line, word, syllable, and letter to ensure accuracy (http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Manuscript.html)

Now that seems pretty good for the bible not changing. It has also been noted that when changes are found in the manuscripts they are very very small and no significance. Things like “Jesus Christ to Christ Jesus” and so one.

But to be fair let’s take a look at the early manuscripts for the Book of Mormon

Book of Mormon= None

The first printing and sale of the Book of Mormon was in 1830 and before then Joseph Smith calmed that he was shown where some golden plates which had the history written on them in reformed Egyptian. Then he returned the plates to the angel.

1^st No manuscripts/ No golden plates

2^nd there is no languages as Reformed Egyptian

Now I know that Mormons clam that reformed just means changed and that it’s a forum of Egyptians written by the people in the book of Mormon but again there is no other proof of this, just what Joseph Smith claimed.

Mormons would have to agree with me that it would be nice to have some evidence of your book to be true, you know like God gave evidence with the Bible. Cities, people, wars, coins and so one, I’m just saying.

Let me end with this, when looking to see which book is true or translated right it is easy to look at the evidence but you must also believe it as well.

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Time for a Change

So this past weekend, I was blessed to take part in the Utah-Idaho Southern Baptist Convention 47th Annual Convention.   This meeting was a huge blessing. I was able to hear a lot of good preaching and was able to think about a lot of things. 

Over the time I was there to hear what we need to do, God smacked me around a little and gave me a path, goal, and information that I needed to grow His kingdom in the Duchesne area and the areas around.  Now this will move people, move them to get off their butts and work or will get them to move their butts to want me out.  but no matter what happens, I will do all things through the power and truth of Jesus Christ.

This is just the start, stay with me, follow me and see how God changes this very lost state.

PS. thank you to Bruce T. for going with me and seeing the vision too.

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Are we Different?

So over the weeks I have seen a lot of LDS bloggers and others complain about how Christians say that Mormons “have a different Jesus” or “Don’t have the Jesus of the Bible”. Well as most Christians and pastors and people who look into the difference in the two beliefs, they understand this to be truth. This is one of the reasons Christians are called anti-Mormon, but it’s not anti-Mormon it’s fact. We believe in two different God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Also we believe in two different origins of man. In a attempt to make it clear, here is a chart that I have used from the book “Mormonism Unmasked”.

One God of the Bible	Plural Gods of Mormonism
God The Father
Infinite	Finite
Always God	Became God
Absolutely Holy	Achieved Holiness
All Knowing	Achieved Knowledge
Eternal Perfect	Achieved Perfection
All Powerful	Attained Power
Only Creator	One of Many Designers
The Son (Jesus)
Eternal	Procreated by God and Wife
Creator	Our Brother
The Holy Spirit
Eternal	Procreated By God and Wife
Creator	A Spirit Brother
Human
Created on Earth	Same Species as God
Spiritually Adopted Children	Born to God and Wife

When you look at this you can see that there are two different things. That’s why we say the LDS has two different God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit.

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Teachings of Thomas S. Monson (Part 3)

It has been a week and a half since my last post on the teachings of Thomas S. Monson, but I am back. I did not want anyone to think I have given up. By the way, how has your reading been? You know, I asked you to read a Christian book as I read this one. Is anyone doing it? Let me know.

So today I want to talk about the section on Eternal Life that starts on page 101 but the quote I want to look at is on page 102 paragraph 2.

“Eternal Life in the kingdom of our Father is your goal. Such a goal is not achieved in one glorious attempt, but rather is the result of a lifetime of righteousness, an accumulation of wise choices, even a constancy of purpose. Like the coveted “A” grade on a report card of a difficult a required college course, the reward of eternal life requires effort.” (“Decisions Determine Destiny,” LDS Student Association Young Women’s Meetings, Logan, Utah, May 16, 1968)

Now is this what the bible says? NO NO NO

39 Then one of the criminals hanging there began to yell insults at Him: “Aren’t You the Messiah? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, rebuking him: “Don’t you even fear God, since you are undergoing the same punishment? 41 We are punished justly, because we’re getting back what we deserve for the things we did, but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.” Luke 23:39-43 (HCSB)

Here we have the showing that Jesus gave salvation, in one glorious action to a criminal. No life time of righteousness, no good works, not sealed in a temple, no nothing. The Criminal just asked and he received eternal life.

16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 (HCSB)

In John 3:16 the key word is believe. If we believe in Jesus have faith in Him, put our faith in Him, repent of our sins, we have eternal life. This takes place in one glorious moment not a life time. If we were to look at our life we would see that we have sinned more then we have done good. That’s way Romans 3:10-12 is so important;

10 as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one. 11 There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away; all alike have become useless. There is no one who does what is good, not even one. Romans 3:10-12 (HCSB)

There is no one that is righteous because one sin gives us eternal death but Romans 6:23 calls eternal life a gift.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 (HCSB)

You cannot work for a gift; a gift is given to you. I love the way Romans 11:6 tells it.

⁶ And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Romans 11:6 (NKJV)

So what does the bible say? It’s a gift that happens when you ask for forgiveness.

What does Thomas S. Monson and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints says? It a lifetime of righteousness and good works.

Sorry Thomas but you got it wrong. That’s not what the Bible says.

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Love One Another (I Love Mormons 2)

One of the terms I hate the most in my ministry is the term, “Anti-Mormon”. Truly I hate this term because this is who I am not. Over the past few weeks I have been called this behind my back, on blogs, and other ways. Now this does hurt because I have said it before and will say it again, I LOVE MORMONS!!!

Now are my blogs talking about how I believe the LDS church is wrong, YES but that is only because I love. Just as the LDS send out Mormon missionaries door to door telling people that they will not be with God if they don’t do certain things, accordion to the LDS faith, I to preach what I know is true.

But as of late it seems that Mormons are trying to claim that the Biblical Christians are beating up on them. And I understand that with the GOP race and the Pastor in Texas, the Biblical Christians have been speaking out about the LDS faith, but we are not bashing you but we are trying to show that the Mormon faith is false. But in no way is the LDS innocent of not bashing of the Biblical Christians. In fact the LDS came out swinging. A lot of past Mormon teachers and prophets have been bashing the Christian Churches for years now. So please don’t think you are getting beat down because you all have a ton a beating in your past.

For example;

2nd President Brigham Young

“The people called Christians are shrouded in ignorance, and read the Scriptures with darkened understandings” (Brigham Young, October 8, 1859, Journal of Discourses 7:333).

“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Tes­tament defines Christianity” (Brigham Young, July 8, 1863, Journal of Discourses, 10:230).

6th President Joseph F. Smith

“…for I contend that the Latter-day Saints are the only good and true Christians, that I know anything about in the world. There are a good many people who profess to be Christians, but they are not founded on the foundation that Jesus Christ himself has laid” (Joseph F. Smith, November 2, 1891, [Stake conference message], Collected Discourses, 2:305. Ellipses mine).

And how about the pastor of these Churches that I am a member of? I am a pastor and I get paid, so what does the LDS think about me and others.

“Wherever creeds are found one can also expect to find a paid clergy, the simple truths of the gospel cloaked in the dark robes of mystery, religious intolerance, and a history of bloodshed” (Jo­seph Fielding McConkie and Craig Ostler, Revelations of the Restora­tion, p. 964).

Hard words on the part of the LDS to the churches and paid pastors. Oh and by the way, what church is the only true church?

Just because the Biblical Christian view is not the same as the LDS, that does not mean that we are Anti-Mormon, we just want to show you the truth found in the Bible and we want to make sure you have eternal life.

As a Pastor, Christian, friend, I love you and care for your soul.

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How was Jesus Conceived?

Over the past week and a half, there has been a lot of talk between Mormons and Christians about how Jesus was conceive. This talk has been highlighted on the bible answer man and has been talked about here in Utah because of those shows.

On the bible answer man, Hank Hanegraaff used a quote from Bruce R. McConkie (Shown Below) to show that Mormon belief say that God came down to earth in a body of flesh and blood and was with Mary to Conceive.

“Christ was Begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547).

Now a lot of Mormons called in and wrote Email stating that we Christians are wrong and don’t know what we are talking about, Which I hear a lot from Mormons, but it is hard to say that when people like Hank Hanegraaff, Bill McKeever, Sandra Tanner, Shawn McCraney, and Myself use the words of Mormon Leaders to understand what the LDS teaches. 

On the issue at hand, How was Jesus conceive?  I give you Luke 1:26-35

26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And ⌊the angel⌋ came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was deeply troubled by this statement, wondering what kind of greeting this could be. 30 Then the angel told her:

Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Now listen: You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.

34 Mary asked the angel, “How can this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?” 35 The angel replied to her:

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy One to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:26-35 (HCSB)

Now as I have talked to members of the LDS, they clam that this is what they believe but this is not what was said by Mormon leaders. let us look at the teachings of Mormon leaders and if a Mormon is reading this then remember that this is what you most believe to be a good Mormon and if that words come from the president then it is scripture, Believed to be the word of God to the LDS.

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers” (Brigham Young, July 8, 1860, Journal of Discourses 8:115). 

“CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF HOLY GHOST… Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:18. Italics in original.

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost” (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7. See also the Church News, December 18, 2004, p. 16).Ellipses mine).

“We are all spirit sons and daughters of God; but Jesus Christ was and is The Son of God in a superlative and distinctive sense, God the Eternal Father being His Father both in spirit and in flesh” (James E. Talmage, Conference Reports, April 1915, p. 123).

“Begotten means begotten; it means Christ’s mortal body was procreated by an Eternal Sire; it means God is the Father of Christ, ‘after the manner of the flesh.’ (1 Ne. 11:18.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:141).

“The official doctrine of the Church is that Jesus is the literal offspring of God. He’s got 46 chromosomes; 23 came from Mary, 23 came from God the eternal Father” (BYU Professor Stephen E. Robinson, The Mormon Puzzle, produced by the Southern Baptist Convention, 1997).

“The Father had a Son, a natural Son, his own literal Seed, the Offspring of his body” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, pg.355).

So for what the words that the LDS clam, God literally came and was with Mary and had a son, that was the LDS Jesus. 

This is not what the Bible teaches and is not what Christians believe.  This is one reason that Christians say that Mormons have a “Different Jesus”.  Again like I have said, and others have said, We do not believe in the same Jesus or the same God.  But my Heart goes out to people of the Mormon faith. I pray that they see the light and the truth and come to know the real Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible. 

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Is This Bigotry? A Response to Latter-day Saints Who Say, "We Never Criticize Christian Churches"

Compiled by Bill McKeever from www.mrm.org

Far too many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are quick to accuse anyone of bigotry if they happen to disagree with the doctrines of Mormonism or place the LDS Church outside the parameters of the Christian faith. It is not uncommon for LDS spokespersons to play the victim card in order to get sympathy from the media or even Christians who are ignorant of Mormon claims. What is often overlooked in this debate is how LDS leaders have characterized Christianity. If to insist that Mormonism is not Christianity makes one a bigot, what do the following statements say about these LDS leaders and the Mormon Church as a whole?

Joseph Smith (Mormonism's founder)

Joseph Smith claimed that he had seen both God the Father and Jesus Christ and asked these personages which church he should join. He claimed he was told to join none of them, "for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

When asked "Will all be damned but Mormons?" Smith replied, "Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 119).

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10).

The Doctrine and Covenants (1:30) leaves no doubt to the Mormon teaching of exclusivity when it says the LDS church is, "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased ...."

Brigham Young (Mormonism's Second President)

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73).

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"The religion of God embraces every fact that exists in all the wide arena of nature, while the religions of men consist of theory devoid of fact, or of any true principle of guidance; hence the professing Christian world are like a ship upon a boisterous ocean without rudder, compass, or pilot, and are tossed hither and thither by every wind of doctrine" (Journal of Discourses 10:265).

"... the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans" (Journal of Discourses 22:44).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

John Taylor (Mormonism's 3rd President)

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense ...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing ...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

"And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses 6:24).

Daniel H. Wells (Mormon Apostle)

"The whole system of Christianity is a failure so far as stemming the tide of wickedness and corruption is concerned, or turning men from their evil ways to living lives of righteousness before God our Heavenly Father. I would rather preach the Gospel to a people who have not got any religion than I would to a people who have got a great deal of religion. You take the Catholic world. What impression can the truths of the Gospel make upon them as a people? Scarcely any impression at all. Why? Because they are satisfied with what they have got, which we know is an error, and which is not calculated to stem the tide of wickedness and corruption which floods the world. It never will convert the world to God or His Kingdom, or convey a knowledge of God unto the children of men, and it is life eternal to know Him, the living and true God. The Christianity of the period will never make the people acquainted with God in the world. It will never bring them to eternal life as spoken of in the Scriptures. It is an utter impossibility. In the first place they do not know anything about God, and in the second place, they apparently don't want to know anything about Him. They have reared a superstructure in the earth which is false. It is and has been a tremendous imposture to the children of men. Some have come out of it, to a certain extent, seeing its incongruity, and yet they have floundered in the dark, not knowing what was right; not having that knowledge of God which is necessary to obtain eternal life, they have been tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, without being able to find the truth. Many who have thus been foundering are honest people; but the so-called system of Christianity is not only an error and a snare, but is a monstrous iniquity fastened upon the children of men throughout the earth. No wonder that people become infidel. The inconsistent and incongruous nature of the system is enough to make any being who reasons infidel. It was time the truth should be revealed; it was time for the Lord to restore the everlasting Gospel, for men were blind. Darkness covered the earth, even gross darkness the minds of the people in regard to religious subjects. Perhaps a darker time was never known since the earth began its revolutions around the sun. From what I have read and from what experience I have had in life, and the intelligence I possess, I make bold to give my testimony that the darkest period the world ever saw was when this work first commenced, when it was made known from heaven to Joseph Smith. It was no darker here, perhaps, than in any other part of the world; but it was just as dark in Christian countries as in any Pagan country, so far as true religion and the light of heaven were concerned" (Journal of Discourses 24:321-322).

Orson Pratt (Mormon Apostle)

"Q. After the Church of Christ fled from the earth to heaven, what was left?

"A. A set of wicked Apostates, murderers, and idolaters, who ...left to follow the wicked imaginations of their own corrupt hearts, and to build up churches by human authority..." (The Seer, pg.205).

“The sooner the present generation loses all reverence and respect for modern ‘Christianity,’ with all its powerless forms and solemn mockeries, the sooner they will be prepared to receive the kingdom of God" (Parley P. Pratt, The Key to the Science of Theology, 1978, p.68).

"...all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord's supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people ...The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints" (The Seer, pg. 255).

"This class of men, calling themselves Christian, uniting with the various forms of the pagan religion, adopting many of their ceremonies and institutions, became very popular, and finally some of the pagans embraced Christianity and were placed, as it were, upon the throne, and what they termed Christianity became very popular indeed. How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostasy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations" (Journal of Discourses 14:346).

"This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses 18:44).

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance, and they are represented in the revelations of St. John as a woman sitting upon a scarlet colored beast, having a golden cup in her hand, full of filthiness and abominations, full of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; that in her forehead there was a name written - `Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots'" (Journal of Discourses 18:172).

"Who is Babylon? I have already explained that Babylon is a great power that should be in the earth under the name of a church, a woman - that generally represents a church - full of blasphemy ...These churches are scattered over the wide face of the earth, and this is called Babylon. Another angel is to follow the one that brings the Gospel, after it has been sufficiently preached, and proclaim the downfall of this great and corrupt power in the earth" (Journal of Discourses 18:179).

"The worshipers of Baal were far more consistent than apostate Christendom; for they had a faint hope that Baal would hear and answer them; but modern divines have no expectation that their God will say anything to them or to their followers. Baal's followers cried from morning until evening for him to give unto them a miraculous manifestation, in the presence of Elijah; but to even expect a supernatural manifestation or revelation now is considered, by modern religionists, as the greatest absurdity. Baal's worshipers, therefore, with all their absurdities, approached nearer the religion of heaven, in some of their expectations, than those who falsely call themselves Christians" (Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, No. 1 (1850), pp.12-13).

"We have already proved in the previous numbers of this series that immediately after the first century the whole earth became corrupted by the great "Mother of Harlots," that apostasy and wickedness succeeded Christianity, that for the want of new revelation, all legal succession to the apostleship was discontinued that the gifts and powers of the Holy Spirit ceased and that the Church was no longer to be found on the earth: this being the case, all nations must have been destitute of the everlasting gospel for many generations - not destitute of its history as it was once preached and enjoyed but destitute of its blessings, of its powers, of its gifts, of its priesthood, of its ordinances administered by legal authority" (Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, No.6 (1851), pg.82).

Heber C. Kimball (First Counselor to Brigham Young)

"Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth ..." (Journal of Discourses 5:89).

George Q. Cannon (Counselor to presidents Young, Taylor, Woodruff and Snow)

"I do not wish to say anything in relation to other forms of religion; I do not know that it is necessary that I should do so; but no thinking man can admit that Christianity so-called - I call it a false Christianity, untrue to its name - satisfies the wants of humanity at the present time. It is not a religion that satisfies" (Journal of Discourses 24:185).

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, pg.324).

Wilford Woodruff (4th LDS President)

"I said then, and I say now, may the Lord give me such periods of darkness as were enjoyed by the Apostles and Saints of old, in preference to the Gospel blaze of modern Christianity. The ancient doctrine and power will unlock the mysteries of heaven, and pour forth that Gospel light, knowledge, and truth, of which the heavens are full, and which has been poured out in every generation when Prophets appeared among the children of men. But the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses 2:196).

Erastus Snow (LDS Apostle)

"There is a theory in the human mind - I will say with a certain school of modern philosophers - to satisfy themselves and justify their infidelity; the bent and tendency of their inclinations is that way. But it is probable that the crude, undefined devices and erroneous notions and ideas of modern Christianity touching the Deity leads to this infidelity, as much as anything else. The advocates of Christianity are in a great measure to blame. When we begin to scan the teachings and enquire into the views of the leading divines of modern times, and examine their articles of faith and their discipline, the teachings of different Christian denominations on the subject of the Deity, we do not wonder that the reflecting, careful thinker, should repudiate their crude notions" (Journal of Discourses 19:268).

B.H. Roberts (LDS Seventy and Historian)

"Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Introduction to the History of the Church 1:XL).

"This view of God as an incorporeal, immaterial, bodiless, partless, passionless being is now and has been from the days of the great apostasy from God and Christ, in the second and third centuries, the doctrine of Deity generally accepted by apostate Christendom. The simple doctrine of the Christian Godhead, set forth in the New Testament is corrupted by the meaningless jargon of these creeds, and their explanations; and the learned who profess a belief in them are wandering in the darkness of the mysticisms of the old pagan philosophies" (History of the Church, 1:LXXXV).

Parley P. Pratt (Mormon Apostle)

"The false and corrupt institutions, and still more corrupt practices of `Christendom,' have had a downward tendency in the generations of man for many centuries ...The overthrow of those ancient degenerate races is a type of that which now awaits the nations called `Christian,' or in other words, `the great whore that sitteth upon many waters" (Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg.106).

James Talmage ( LDS Apostle)

"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ ...From the facts already stated it is evident that the Church was literally driven from the earth; in the first ten centuries immediately following the ministry of Christ the authority of the Holy Priesthood was lost among men, and no human power could restore it" (The Articles of Faith, pp.200,203).

"The significance and importance of the great apostasy, as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious. If the alleged apostasy of the primitive Church was not a reality, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims" (The Great Apostasy, preface).

Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS President)

"For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation that was not, in the year 1820, so obscured by false tradition and ceremonies, borrowed from paganism, as to make it unrecognizable; or else it was entirely denied ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation 3:282).

Spencer W. Kimball (12th LDS President)

"This is the only true church ...This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg.421).

"Presumptuous and blasphemous are they who purport to baptize, bless, marry, or perform other sacraments in the name of the Lord while in fact lacking the specific authorization" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg.55).

Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle)

"The traditions of the elders - as is also the case with the traditions of an apostate Christendom - are wholly devoid of the least scintilla of inspiration. They are, as Jesus said, 'the commandments of men'" (The Mortal Messiah, Vol.2, FOOTNOTES, Pg.412).

"What of seventies? Who are they, and how do they fit into the eternal scheme of things? That their mission and ministry is unknown among the cults of Christendom is one of the great evidences of the apostate darkness that engulfs those who call themselves by the name of Him who called seventies to stand as especial witnesses of that very name" (The Mortal Messiah, 3:99-100).

"Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general. False churches, false prophets, false worship - breeding as they do a way of life that runs counter to the divine will - all these are signs of the times" (The Millennial Messiah, pg.403).

"What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power? ...It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel ...It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts" (The Millennial Messiah, pp.54-55).

"As with other doctrines and ordinances, apostate substitutes of the real thing are found both among pagans and supposed Christians" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.72).

"When inquiring and scientific minds delve into the narrow and bigoted creeds of the apostate sects of Christendom it is not surprising that they rebel against those dogmas falsely set forth as the tenets of true religion" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.107).

"Christianity is the religion of the Christians. Hence, true and acceptable Christianity is found among the saints who have the fullness of the gospel, and a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.132).

"The only real superiority of the apostate sects of Christendom over their more openly pagan counterparts is the fact that the Christian sects (though rejecting the doctrines, ordinances, and powers of the gospel) have nonetheless preserved many of the ethical teachings of Christ and the apostles" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.240).

"And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.269).

"Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, pg.316).

"In large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed before the Unknown God, and to whom Paul said: "Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you" (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 374).

"For instance: The creeds of apostate Christendom teach untruths about God, and the scriptures say that those who accept these creeds 'have inherited lies.' (Jer. 16:16-21.) Those who accept any of the doctrines of the apostate churches are said to 'believe a lie.' (2 Thess. 2:1-12.) The process of apostasy consists in changing 'the truth of God into a lie.'" (Mormon Doctrine pg. 440).

"Pagan tribal gods were the creation of the imaginations of apostate peoples, just as the creeds and apostate views of God which prevail in modern Christendom are the result of forsaking the truth" (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 511).

"Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mormonism; they are one and the same, and they are not to be distinguished from each other in the minutest detail ...Mormons are true Christians; their worship is the pure, unadulterated Christianity authored by Christ and accepted by Peter, James, and John and all the ancient saints" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.513).

"The gods of Christendom, for instance, are gods who were created by men in the creeds of an apostate people. There is little profit or peace in serving them, and certainly there is no salvation available through them" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg.545).

Misc.

“To say that Satan sits in the place of God in Christianity after the time of the Apostles is not to say that all that is in it is satanic…Still, ‘the power of God unto salvation’ (Rom. 1:16) is absent from all but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which the Lord himself has proclaimed to be ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth (D&C 1:30). Satan’s goal of hindering many of God’s children from returning to their Father’s glory is thus realized.” (BYU Professor Kent P. Jackson, “Early Signs of the Apostasy,” Ensign, December 1984, p. 9)

“The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy. Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. The church was very different from the Church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being without substance" (Correlated LDS manual Gospel Principles, 2009, p.92).

Teachings of Thomas S. Monson: Part 2 (His Teachings VS The Book of Mormon)

So as I have started reading the sections in Thomas S. Monson book, I have read things that I don’t agree with but also things I do.  One of the things that I do agree with was in his section of the Atonement.  Now it is not that the Atonement took place in Gethsemane because it did not take place there but on the cross, but I will get to that in another post.  The part that I did agree with was on page 20 where Thomas says,

“More then 2000 years ago, Christ our Savior, was born to mortal life in a stable in Bethlehem. The long-foretold Messiah had come.” 

Did you catch that?  Did Thomas S. Monson just say that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? 

Although the Christian belief is that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, that is not what is written in the Book of Mormon. 

Alma 7:10 says, And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Now we know what the bible says,

 Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me. His origin is from antiquity, from eternity.    Micah 5:2 (HCSB)

Now this has been an issue for years because it is clearly wrong in the Book of Mormon, which is a problem because the Book of Mormon is call, “The Most Correct Book Ever Written” by the LDS church.

Now over the years, Mormons have clamed that Bethlehem was so close to Jerusalem that they where kind of one in the same.  The truth is, is that they are 6 miles apart and anyone from that area that you talk to will never say that you could say that Bethlehem was Jerusalem. or that Bethlehem was a sub community of Jerusalem, they were two different towns. 

  

 Bethlehem Ephrathah - a small town near Jerusalem on the West Bank of the Jordan River; early home of David and regarded as the place where Jesus was born.

Now to be fair I want and watched a video clip from fairlds.org to see what they said. It came to my attention that as they talked about Alma 7:10, they change the verse to make it say what they wanted it to.  They change it form saying, “at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers” and they said “that he was born at the land of Jerusalem.”  But again the Book of Mormon says, “at Jerusalem which is the land…”

So the question is this, Who is wrong? Joseph Smith? The Book of Mormon? Thomas S. Monson?

One of them is wrong on this subject. We know that History and the Bible states that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and not Jerusalem.  We know that God told us that the birth would take place in Bethlehem and not in the so called land of Jerusalem.  God was clear and that is where Jesus was born. 

So today I have to give it to Thomas S. Monson for telling his people that the Book of Mormon was wrong and that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. 

END OF LINE… 

 

Is the New World Translation of the Bible credible?

From CRI and www.equip.org

Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the New World Translation (NWT) is the “work of competent scholars.” Conversely, they contend that other Bible translations are corrupted by religious traditions that are rooted in paganism. In reality, the NWT is the work of a Bible Translation Committee with no working knowledge of biblical languages. Their bias is so blatant that Dr. Bruce Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton, not only characterized the NWT as a “frightful mistranslation” but as “erroneous,” “pernicious,” and “reprehensible.”

First, the NWT mistranslates the Greek Scriptures in order to expunge the deity of Jesus Christ. Against all credible scholarship, Jesus is downgraded from God to “a” god in John 1 and demoted from the Creator of all things to a mere creature who created all other things in Colossians 1. According to the translation committee of the Watchtower Society, Jesus was created by God as the archangel Michael, during his earthly sojourn was merely human, and after his crucifixion was recreated an immaterial spirit creature.

Furthermore, the Translation Committee has sought to conform the NWT to their religious traditions by replacing the cross of Christ with a torture stake. Matthew 10:38, for example, has been altered to read, “And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” In Watchtower lore, the cross is a pagan symbol adopted by an apostate Christianity when Satan took control of the early church. Jehovah’s Witnesses view wearing a cross as a blatant act of idolatry. Conversely, Christians wear crosses as a reminder of what was at once the most brutal and beautiful act in redemptive history.

Finally, the Watchtower Society claims that the Christian Scriptures have “been tampered with” in order to eliminate the name Jehovah from the text. In reality, it is the Translation Committee of the NWT that can rightly be accused of tampering. In well over two hundred cases the name Jehovah has been gratuitously inserted into the New Testament text. In passages such as Romans 10:13 this is done to obscure the unique deity of Christ. In other passages, it is done under the pretext that referring to God as Lord rather than Jehovah is patently pagan. Ironically, in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, Watchtower translators themselves fall into this “pagan” practice by translating the Greek word kurios as Lord even in cases where it specifically refers to the Father.

For these and a host of other reasons, Greek scholars across the board denounce the NWT. Dr. Julius Mantey, author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, called the NWT a “shocking mistranslation,” and Dr. William Barclay characterized the translators themselves as “intellectually dishonest.”

For further study, see David A. Reed, Answering Jehovah‘s Witnesses: Subject by Subject (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1996).

Revelation 22:18–19
“I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy
of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God
will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes words away from this book
of prophecy, God will take away from him
his share in the tree of life and in the holy city,
which are described in this book.”

(See also Deuteronomy 4:2)