Joseph Smith Joins Methodist Church in 1828

Here we have video from Heart of the Matter that states that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church 8 years after God told him not to join any Church because there creeds where abomination. 

Now some LDS just say that he was not a full member but just checking it out. Some say it was a class that someone took him to but over all, Joseph Smith had his name placed in a book to join the church.  again, 8 years after God told him not to. 

Here are the quotes:

He presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members. (The Amboy Journal, Amboy, Illinois, April 30, 1879, p.1)

I, with Joshua McKune, a local preacher at that time, I think in June, 1828, heard on Saturday, that Joe Smith had joined the church on Wednesday afternoon, (as it was customary in those days to have circuit preaching at my father's house on week-day). We thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it. So on Sunday we went to father's, the place of meeting that day, and got there in season to see Smith and talked with him some time in father's shop before the meeting. Told him that his occupation, habits, and moral character were at variance with the discipline, that his name would be a disgrace to the church, that there should have been recantation, confession and at least promised reformation-. That he could that day publicly ask that his name be stricken from the class book, or stand an investigation. He chose the former, and did that very day make the request that his name be taken off the class book. (The Amboy Journal, June 11, 1879, p.1).

Now looking a the FAIR website, they almost just total look over these facts.  according to the FAIR website they say;

Did Joseph join other churches contrary to commandment in vision?—Critics charge that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches between 1820 and 1830—despite the claim made in his 1838 history that he was forbidden by Deity (during the 1820 First Vision experience) from joining any denomination.

also saying;

No critic who has charged Joseph Smith with joining a church between 1820 and 1830 has ever produced any authentic denominational membership record that would substantiate such a claim. Eyewitness reminiscences and contemporary records provide strong evidence that this claim is not valid and, therefore, does not reflect historical reality.

1st Like so many of the early Methodist records, the early class books of the Harmony (now Lanesboro) Church are lost, so we will never know for certain whether Joseph Smith remained a member for only three days or six months. However, there was never any dispute that he had become a member, and by this one act he undercut the story he later put forth that God in a special vision had instructed him specifically not to join the Methodist Church.       (taken from http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm)

2nd It is easy for people in the Mormon faith to believe in the Book of Mormon with no Authentic Record before 1820 but they believe in it. 

3rd This event is also mentioned in Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda K. Newell and Valeen T. Avery, University of Illinois Press, 1994, p.25.

Emma's uncle, Nathaniel Lewis, preached as a lay minister of the local Methodist Episcopal church. His congregation met in the homes of the members for Sunday services. On Wednesdays a regular circuit preacher visited Harmony. In the spring or summer of 1828 Joseph asked the circuit rider if his name could be included on the class roll of the church. Joseph "presented himself in a very serious and humble manner," and the minister obliged him.

When Emma's cousin, Joseph Lewis, discovered Joseph's name on the roll, he "thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer" as a member. He took the matter up with a friend, and the following Sunday, when Joseph and Emma arrived for church, the two men steered Joseph aside and into the family shop. "They told him plainly that such character as he . . . could not be a member of the church unless he broke off his sins by repentance, made public confession, renounced his fraudulent and hypocritical practices, and gave some evidence that he intended to reform and conduct himself somewhat nearer like a christian than he had done. They gave him his choice to go before the class, and publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class book, or stand a disciplinary investigation." Joseph refused to comply with the humiliating demands and withdrew from the class. His name, however, stayed on the roll for about six more months, either from oversight or because Emma's brother-in-law, Michael Morse, who taught the class, did not know of the confrontation. When Joseph did not seek full membership, Morse finally dropped his name.²"

Page 314, footnote 2:
Amboy Journal, 11 June and 30 April 1879. In 1879 Joseph and Hiel Lewis, sons of Uncle Nathaniel Lewis, debated with a Mormon named Edwin Cadwell over events in Harmony while Emma and Joseph lived there. The Amboy Journal reproduced their letters.

Taken from www.utlm.org  http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm

It is clear that Joseph Smith, being burned by the Methodist Church, tried to erased this from his history because of earlier claims and then the idea of the first vision that the LDS church being the One and Only true church. 

Again, here is the proof. Take it or leave it but it is there.

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The Fall was Good?

Last night as I was looking through my 1979 copy of Gospel Principles, I find myself reading about Adam and Eve and the fall.  Now I have looked into this before and have heard of that the LDS church teaches that the fall was a good thing but I had never actually took the time to study it. The main reason is that I never could believe that a group that claims they worship God could say that sin was a good thing.  But The teachings of the Mormon church does say that the fall of Adam and Eve, sin, was a good thing. 

This is what it says in Gospel Principles;

“Some people believe that Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all mankind” (Gospel Principles, 1979, p. 31). 

Now this one quote was not has hard to read then some of the quotes from Mormons teaching that parse sin. 

  “ADAM AND EVE REJOICED IN THE FALL. Before partaking of the fruit Adam could have lived forever; therefore, his status was one of immortality. When he ate, he became subject to death, and therefore he became mortal. This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do! I am sure that neither Adam nor Eve looked upon it as a sin, when they learned the consequences, and this is discovered in their words after they learned the consequences” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:115. See also The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327, p. 13).

“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise” (Russell M. Nelson, “Constancy amid Change,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, p. 34).

“Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we should have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve, why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to His government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and He had designed that they should.” (Brigham Young, June 10-13, 1864, Journal of Discourses 10:312).

Brigham Young stated that God designed that they would sin.  This me wonder why God would ever tell not to eat of the tree in the first place. 

Christian understand that sin is wrong and has always been wrong.  even the Mormons teach that  Satan and his followers sinned in Heaven and turned on God and was punished but they look at Adams sin and say it was a good thing?  this does not make any since at all? 

The Bible makes it clear that sin is wrong.  Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of there sins and people have died because they have sin ageist God.  If sin was apart of God’s plan then why would we need to be forgiven of sin. 

Even the book of Mormon makes it clear that sin is wrong;

  “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37).

Sin can’t save or be part of God’s plan.  The whole idea of God is that he is perfect and that sin is us going ageist God.  He would not set us for us to sin to move is plans along. 

If we believe that Adam’s sin was good and needed to be done, that would  take away for the great and powerful will of God. We have to understand that God does not need us to move His plan and He does not need us to sin to let His plan happen.  God is God and we are just man.  He is our creator and we can not change His plan.

God, Your Will Be Done!!!  Not mine.

Sin is not good any time or any reason. Jesus went to the cross because of sin and died because of the sin that we commit. 

8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.       1 John 3:8-10 (HCSB)

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Who’s Closer?

When it comes to understanding where Biblical Christian and Mormons stand with each other, The Mormon tries to believe that we are one in the same.  I any Bible believing that has study the matter sees that the Mormon and Biblical Christian are no where close to being the same. 

In my blog post, My Top 10 questions I asked the question and also showing a chat showing to 2 different ideas of God in both the Mormon faith and the Christian faith.

As I show that it is clear the we believe in two different God’s, Mormons who answered the question still told me that we had the same God.  HOW CAN THIS BE? 

One day the Bishop’s wife stop by my house to talk and get to know me.  She asked me if I believe that they where not Christians. As I told her, I wish I could but the Mormons faith does not believe in the God of the Bible.  She then asked me, “Is it because we don’t believe in the Trinity”.  YES YES YSE, that’s a main reason.

To try to make it more clear Biblical Christians believe in the Trinity, Mormons don’t. Biblical Christians believe that there is only one God and will be only one God, Mormons don’t. Biblical Christians believe the Bible is the only Holy Book from God, Mormons don’t. And I could go on and on about how we are different but there are still Mormons who believe we are the same.

But let me ask my Mormons friends read this a questions, “If you believe that we are the same, are members of the FLDS Mormons?”

As I have asked this questions to Mormons I get the answer, NO THEY ARE NOT. but why?  I mean they believe in Joseph Smith as Prophet. They believe in the Book of Mormons. they believe in the temple. they believe in almost all the same teachings as the main stream LDS church.  But the LDS church has casted  them out.   but again I want to point out, The FLDS is closer in belief with Mormons than the LDS church is with Biblical Christianity.  

Think about it. 

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No 1820 Revival

From www.mrm.org written by: Wesley Walters http://www.mrm.org/first-vision

First, his neighborhood in 1820 experienced no revival such as he described, in which "great multitudes" joined the Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian churches. The Presbyterian records for the Palmyra Presbyterian Church show that it experienced no revival in 1820. (See Geneva Presbytery "Records," Presbyterian Historical Society.) The local Baptist church gained only six on profession of faith the entire year ("Records for the First Baptist Church in Palmyra," American Baptist Historical Society) while the Methodists actually lost members that year as well as the preceding and following years (Minutes of the Annual Conference).

Joseph Smith claimed that his mother, sister and two brothers were led to join the local Presbyterian Church as a result of that 1820 revival. However, four years before he made this claim, his own church paper had stated that the revival in which his family had been led to join the Presbyterian Church took place in 1823 (Messenger & Advocate I, pp. 42, 78). In fact, that account says it was the same 1823 revival that led him to go to his bedroom (not to a sacred grove) and pray "if a Supreme being did exist" and to know that "he was accepted of him." An angel (not a deity) is then reported to have appeared and told him of his forgiveness and of the gold plates.

Joseph's mother, likewise, knew nothing of an 1820 vision. In her unpublished account, she traces the origin of Mormonism to a bedroom visit by an angel. Joseph at the time had been "pondering which of the churches were the true one." The angel told him "there is not a true church on Earth. No not one" (First draft of "Lucy Smith's History," LDS Church Archives).

Furthermore, she tells us that the revival which led her joining the church took place following the death of her son, Alvin. Alvin died Nov. 19, 1823, and following that painful loss she reports that, "about this time there was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject and we among the rest, flocked to the meeting house to see if there was a word of comfort for us that might relieve our over-charged feelings" (p. 55-56).

She adds that although her husband would only attend the first meetings, he had no objection to her or the children "going or becoming church members." There is plenty of additional evidence that the revival Lucy Smith refers to did occur during the winter of 1824-25. It was reported in at least a dozen newspapers and religious periodicals. The church records show outstanding increases due to the reception of new converts. The Baptist church received 94, the Presbyterian 99, while the Methodist work grew by 208. No such revival bringing in "great multitudes" occurred in 1820.

It is clear that the revival Joseph Smith, Jr. described did not occur in 1820, but in 1824. Joseph Smith arbitrarily moved that revival back four years to 1820 and made it fit a First Vision story that neither his mother nor other close associates had heard of in those early days. The historical facts completely discredit Joseph Smith's First Vision story. (For further details, see "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought" Spring 1969, pp. 59-100.)

http://www.archive.org/download/ViewpointOnMormonism/2011.11.22.No1820Revival.mp3

He Said What!?!?

The Bible tells us time and time again not to boast about ourselves and things that we have done but only to boast in the LORD. 

3 Do not boast so proudly, or let arrogant ⌊words⌋ come out of your mouth, for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and actions are weighed by Him.  1 Sam 2:3 (HCSB)

23 This is what the Lord says:
The wise man must not boast in his wisdom; the strong man must not boast in his strength; the wealthy man must not boast in his wealth. 24 But the one who boasts should boast in this, that he understands and knows Me — that I am the Lord, showing faithful love, justice, and righteousness on the earth, for I delight in these things. ⌊This is⌋ the Lord’s declaration. Jer 9:23-24 (HCSB)

This is something that is strongly understood in the Christian faith and if and when pastor and others have boasted about things they have done, they have been or should be called on them. 

But as I write this I think of a quote from Joseph Smith that not only did he boast but claimed he did better then Jesus…

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I” (Joseph Smith, May 26, 1844, History of the Church 6:408-409).

HE SAID WHAT!?!?

Now if a pastor/leader in any Christian church said something like this, they would be called a heretic.  To say that one has done more to keep the church together then Christ like Joseph Smith did is unthinkable. 

I mean Jesus is God and saying that one has done anything better then God… well I just can put it into words. 

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Math